Am I corresponding with Pro Dater or am I just paranoid?

[Timothy]

Hello Everyone!
This is my first post. I'm glad that I found this site. The topic on Handycam's experience with pro-dating in Odessa was especially interesting and I hope never to come across something like that!

First, to tell a little about me, I'm a 3rd generation Ukrainian/American. Both my parents were born in U.S however and my mother has Polish extractions so basically I know only a little Ukrainian language. I am 41 years old and divorced with no children.
To get to the point:
I belonged to a dating agency called cityofbrides.com (Yes, I know-big time scammer site)
From that site, I received a nice introduction from a 25 year old woman from Odessa named Tanechka and I decided to write to her. Immediately I began to get letters from her but thru a translation service in Odessa called etoiles.com. Yes, I know that Odessa is a hotbed of scammer activity. Tanechka also seems to have a profile at Elena's agency. After I began to correspond with her a couple weeks, her profile on cityofbrides was taken off.

We have been corresponding for more than a month and although thru translation, Tenechka seems to be really nice and I would like to meet her. She is pretty,seems to have good values,and answers my letters with complete thoroughness while asking questions herself. I have spoken to her by phone also(in limited Ukrainian and English) and recently upon request she had given me her local address in Odessa.( I would like to send her a New Years card)

 Apparently,on weekends, she often goes home to her parents village in Vidpasoe.
The problem I seem to have and I wonder if it is related to something I've heard about lately called the duo pro dating scam. Whereas the interpreter works with client as two scammers.
Perhaps because of what I have read about scamming, I may be a little paranoid and this may amount to nothing but here are my reasons:

1) In letters, Tanechka says she has a graduate degree and works as a court clerk in Odessa. But she says that she has no knowledge of computers (doesn't know how to type on one) and relies on the dating(translation) agency to write and read letters. Since, I know some Ukrainian and can easily translate with a dictionary when needed, I had been trying to get her away from the agency since they charge her for translation. She has not asked me for money yet but I did on my own pay for her November translations ($100/month unlimited) at the time when I decided to send her flowers also.(thru their website)

2) Most of the time, she does not answer her cell phone when I call her on weekend nights(Odessa hours). She claimed this week that she gave her cell phone to her sister in the village to borrow for a couple weeks. Even before that, she would answer only on the third or fourth time. Of course we all miss calls however.

3) No photos for quite a while from her (2.5 weeks). We correspond about every other day. At first I was getting alot of photos from her and many of them were found on her profile for Elenas agency and bestdating.com. In other words, I am not sure if I ever received any current photos and now they have totally stopped coming. I asked her about this and she said that she did not have a camera and doesn't know how soon she will have access to one. She also stated that she is not photographed often. I didn't know it was so hard in Ukraine to get access to someone's camera if you don't own one. I have visited Ukraine before to see relatives in the village and it seemed to me, it was never a hard task to find someone who had a camera. I figured in 2009 Ukraine, most young people in Odessa would have one.

4) I sent Tanechka a letter Wednesday night(USA time) so that it would have arrived in her mailbox at 6:30AM Odessa time. I received a lengthy reply from her at 6:00PM USA time. Interesting that the translator translated my letter to Russian,gave to Tanechka and Tanechka wrote a lengthy reply the same day and gave to translator to reply back in English. How all this can be accomplished in less than 18 hours while Tanechka is working normal hours at her job is quite amazing to me. In other words, I got the feeling that the translator is herself writing the letters?

5) A letter I received a couple Mondays ago did not mention at all the phone conversation we had the previous Saturday. When I brought this up, she said that she had written the letter just before I called her.


Other than that. everything else seems up and up. She writes intelligently,in depth and I wouldn't have any doubts about her except for those 5 points I mentioned taken together. What I am trying to figure out is whether she has sincere intentions and not a pro dater. For example, she always writes 'how she feels so close to my soul' and she always thinks about me and that she is interested in a serious relationship. No words of love yet for which I am glad. We have already began discussing plans to meet sometime next Spring. After asking her about it, she is not against us living together in an apartment in Odessa (as long as it is nice enough-$80-$100/day). She states that she does not want me to live in her apartment because she shares with a girlfriend and it would be 'uncomfortable' for us.

 Because of what has recently transpired with the points mentioned above, I am at the stage now whether I am not sure to continue paying translation services for her (and wasting my time) although she has never asked me for money. I was just doing it to be a gentleman and because she does seem like a very nice woman.

About the age difference--I realize that I am 16 years older than her. Originally I was looking for 30 and over until her introductory email came.I'm a fairly decent looking person with average weight and height ,although with much less hair than I used to have (but not totally bald yet).
Has anyone had any experience with the translation company she uses---etoiles.com.ua? They have a website and it is written so as to be as legit as possible but of course anyone can post anything.

Thanks for your time!

[XMan]

I think you accurately identified a number of red flags. 
#4 in particular sounds like agency letter writing. 
I don't know etoiles.com.  cityofbrides certainly is suspect. 

What is the old joke -- you may be paranoid, but are you paranoid enough? 

I would say this is at least medium risk. 

[SANDRO43]

Hello Everyone!This is my first post.

Welcome to RWD, Tim. Apart from your other points, these 2 are decidedly suspect:

I belonged to a dating agency called cityofbrides.com (Yes, I know-big time scammer site) From that site, I received a nice introduction from a 25 year old woman from Odessa named Tanechka and I decided to write to her.

Receiving mail from what you yourself call a "big-time scammer site" .

1) In letters, Tanechka says she has a graduate degree and works as a court clerk in Odessa. But she says that she has no knowledge of computers (doesn't know how to type on one) and relies on the dating(translation) agency to write and read letters. Since, I know some Ukrainian and can easily translate with a dictionary when needed, I had been trying to get her away from the agency since they charge her for translation. She has not asked me for money yet but I did on my own pay for her November translations ($100/month unlimited) at the time when I decided to send her flowers also.(thru their website)

Computer illiteracy often is the excuse offered not to abandon the agency intermediary. She may not have asked for money - yet - but you're already forking out dollars for translations, of which she is probably a partial beneficiary - this is known as the 'translation scam'.

Additionally:

3) No photos for quite a while from her (2.5 weeks).

Fat Yuri (see definition in the RWD Glossary in the Main Menu at left) may have exhausted his stack of photos of this particular girl, who may not even KNOW she's corresponding with you .

All in all, I'd consider wiser for you to steer in another direction .

[Timothy]

Thanks for your responses so far Sandro and XMan!

Yeah, I know well about the cityofbrides site. I figured that maybe she is part of the 10% on there who are sincere.
However, she does have a profile on Elena's models if that means anything.

She does exist. I even have a copy of her passport and will post it or a couple photos if it is allowed on here. When I first questoned myself about her sudden switch to the translation service located in Odessa (IP check verified) called etoiles.com.ua, I wrote a letter to the 'director' of the club-Elena Yaremenko. She responded that everything was up and up and emailed me a copy of her passport.
Of course this doesn't explain whether or not I am involved in a interpreter/client prodater scam.
However, my main question, is how sincere is Tanechka? Of course, the only way of finding out is by visiting her to be certain. But I would like to cut my costs and run if she is in fact not sincere.
I paid $100 ( for month unlimited translating) + $25 for a bunch of wildflowers.
She never asked me for translation money. I just did that on my own after a couple weeks. Maybe stupid to do. Only time will tell.
Another red flag- I never received a photo from Tanechka actually holding the flowers. I had subtly brought this up to her in a letter when I questioned if she herself was same "Tanechka" who I had been holding a conversation on the phone. She had then written that she understood my concern about dating scams but wanted to reassure me that she was real and that I should trust her.

Yes, I find it odd when she writes that she does not know how to type on a computer. From a village girl, I can understand but not from a supposed holder of a graduate degree in Odessa and who supposedly works as a property registrator in a court. All Ukraine schools may not have computers but this is not 1992 Ukraine either. Difficult to judge but maybe she is right.

The #4 reason in my post above especially concerns me and that is why I decided to become a member on this board. I suppose that it is possible that she had a day off from work and wrote a reply immediately. BUt it sure would be quite a task for the 'interpreter' to translate my whole page letter, give to Tanechka, while Tanechka responds afterwords in a full page letter in Russian then having the translator translate into English---all in the course of 18 hours. And mind you, the letter was in response to my letter and with detailed answers. In other words, a perfect letter.

[SANDRO43]

Yes, I find it odd when she writes that she does not know how to type on a computer. From a village girl, I can understand but not from a supposed holder of a graduate degree in Odessa and who supposedly works as a property registrator in a court.

Unless she only works in longhand .

BTW, I forgot to add that you might run her through our ScamCard in the Scam Avoidance menu at left, not so much for its final score but to pick up further points to watch out for .

[Timothy]

Yes, she could work in long-hand. In fact, one of the photos she had sent me a photo of her at work doing long-hand.
My java doesn't seem to work properly with the scam card. I get an error when calculating the score.  
Anyway it looks like it would be a legit score. For example, the contact info are all 'yes' and the needs and wants are all nos.
I'm not sure if the scam card accurately reflects the possible pro-dater scam scenerio.

[SANDRO43]

I'm not sure if the scam card accurately reflects the possible pro-dater scam scenerio.

We're always open to suggestions for its possible improvement .

[Vaughn]

Timothy, welcome to the RWD forum.

<flower suggestion redundant - and deleted>

 It's obvious you've got some
doubts, and IMO they are well-founded ones. I don't know of too many solid UW/AM
relationships/marriages that began with so many explanations for behavior and timing.

 Most of all, be willing and prepared to move on. In that vein, concentrate on ladies
that you contact initially, and who are reachable by home phone. Your ability in the
language, though limited, should be a great plus. Any lady who insists on translation
services for the bulk of your communications - well, need I state the obvious?

[Misha]

What I am trying to figure out is whether she has sincere intentions and not a pro dater.

Meet her in her city, go out to a modest restaurant, don't spent piles of money on shopping spree buying her everything in sight, and if she does not disappear at any point, then the odds are pretty good she won't be a "pro-dater."

[RussianWind]

Whatever it goes I don't think it is right to post any photos and especially documents for the whole world to look at.

Why do you think they sent you a copy of her passport? Nobody sends documents just like that. It looks like somebody wants to prove "the girl is real" but does it really?

I once was shown such a "sent passport". The image was modified in photoshop and I counted at least 14 modifications there.

P.S. Two last photos are scanned, taken with a film camera probably 10 years ago.

[BillyB]

2) Most of the time, she does not answer her cell phone when I call her on weekend nights

If she's not available evenings on weekend, she could be banging boyfriend #3 and/or 4.

It's good that you're cautious Timothy but don't be paranoid. Paranoia will destroya. NEVER visit a woman unless you're comfortable with her and trust her. You can't have good dates with her if you can't relax.

[Timothy]

BillyB- Good point of course. Noone ever knows in any long distance correspondence.  Yes, I don't want to make the mistake of being too paranoid.


Russian Wind: You are right about the photos and I have removed them for now. But your point is taken only if she is a true sincere woman honestly looking for a relationship. Otherwise, if she is part of a scam, then other men should be aware of her.
Yes, I have a copy of her passport. Seems ok to me and doesn't look to have modifications.
I counted at least a minimum of 20 or 21 candles on that cake and since she is 25 then it can't be more than 5 years.
Full family photos sometimes can be taken rarely. I know that at that age, my family didn't have full family member photos every year.

[RussianWind]

Yes, I have a copy of her passport. Seems ok to me and doesn't look to have modifications.

What's the point of modifications what clear seen by everyone?  

I counted at least a minimum of 20 or 21 candles on that cake and since she is 25 then it can't be more than 5 years.

I of course didn't count candles. My observation is based on other things. How do you know she is 25... according to the "passport"?   She looks 25 in those old photos.

[Timothy]

Russian Wind:

What is the reason for a girl to lie about her age? She is a member of Elena's models and another dating site and they both list her age of 25. Her passport states her full birthdate. All the details point out where she is from, per her profile on those sites. Why would there be modifications on her passport?
I believe she is real. My questions upon coming to this board were if I had valid points regarding the possibility of her being involved in a duo pro-dating scam with her terp.


How do we know those photos are so old? Or 10 years as you say?  I will post them again for a short while for any additional comments. They could have been taken with a Kodak110 camera for all I know and we know how bad quality those are.

[RussianWind]

What is the reason for a girl to lie about her age?

To catch you of course 

I dunno the whole story sounds unreal, starting from the point she can't type. And trust me girls are not so easy to send copies of their passport to somebody in the net. You get this when somebody tries to convince you in something.

[viking]

I have been down this road. Family photos, letters written directly to me answering all my questions, being able to reach her on a cell anytime I want, and I even met her in person. Pro-dater. Major, big time, pro-dater.

Passport photos have been altered for years. Very common and for many different reasons. And many women, even on Elenas models, stretch the truth about their age. The question is, is she real or not. The photos are of a woman. That woman is real. But until you meet this woman in person you do not know if she is the woman in the photo. Make sense? Not being able to get off the translations issues is a major issue. Any person her age knows how to type. Period. And a computer keyboard is not an alien object. If she wanted, she must have friends who have a computer where she could go and have them type you a letter. Sorry. But my hair stands high on the back of my neck on this one.

And be truthful with yourself. If you are counting candles on a cake to try and backtrack her age, you have doubts. Period. You need to take off your rose colored glasses. Time to move on.

[Timothy]

Russian Wind:

Well, if you read my earlier post, I didn't ask Tanechka herself for her passport. It was simply emailed to me by the manager Elena at etoiles.com.ua when I first questioned whether she was real or not. The thought hadn't occurred to me yet about a pro dating scam scenerio. I was never aware of that kind of scam until I heard  the story from Handycam (ironically also in Odessa) which especially intrigued me.

Here is the text which I copied from an email from Elena:

Hello Timothy,

Thank you for your message, and I would like to comment it now.

I asked the translator, and she said that Tanechka came to the club on
Friday evening to take your letter, and she brought her response on
Monday evening.

Of course, I know it well that to regret dating scam is a big problem
nowadays, and I can understand your fears. It is not that easy to
establish trust, if you have not seen a person in real life, but such
is a peculiarity of the Internet acquaintance.

From my part, I want to reassure you, that Tanechka does exist, she is
a real person, and if you come to visit her, you WILL find her here.
Or why would someone invite you to visit her, if she was ulreal?? What
would be the sense in it? Scammer agencies, I believe, would not ask
you to come, or even more, would postpone your meeting finding
different reasons!

Our good reputation is important for us, and all the clients of our
club are real people. I attached the scanned copies of her passport
(necessary when we take someone as a client) which was made, as you
can see on 2nd page, back in 2002 year.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask.

Sincerely,

Elena.

[Timothy]

Viking,

Thanks for your reply. It was actually 'Russian Wind' who was questioning her age. From her photos posted here, she seems to be 25 as she stated in her letter and and her profile on Elena's and other sites. If she lied and she was really 27 or 28, who cares then? I just don't see the point in her lying about her age or doctoring her passport to change the age. Seems redundent to me....

As for your other points, they are very well taken, especially about the computer part. I never was in Odessa so I don't know for sure how easily assessible they are. Of course there are the usual internet cafes but how common are computers in universities and given that she says she has a degree, I would think she has experience in a computer. But is computer training part of the curriculum there?? Now remember, she is originally from a village near there so maybe it is possible that she doesn't have experience with a PC.
The important thing is, how loyal is she to this translation agency? If I am able to steer her away from it, that may be a good thing.
You know, it is probably easier and more trusting just to add contacts on Skype or ICQ and initiate a conversation thru there rather than using dating agencies in the first place. Another good one is 12kisses.com. It is free and you can have a free flowing chat on there.

[RussianWind]

I will leave you in your illusions, I will better go to bed. Please PM me when you visit her, I am very intrigued to read your story. But do it a bit in advance, so I can supply myself with pop corn 

[Timothy]

Yeah, I should do the same since I obviously have nothing better to do but sit here and analyize this over and over all night. And by the way, you will have a long wait because I do not plan on going there until early spring.  

[Ade]

Yes, she could work in long-hand. In fact, one of the photos she had sent me a photo of her at work doing long-hand.

If that's the 2nd picture in your 8th post then, um, well, that's not for sure. She is just holding that pen and the paper is a printed document. Also, she has an Encyclopaedia on her desk. Not sure why she would need that in her job. On the other hand, my wife says that she thinks the flag and surroundings are consistent with maybe an old government office in a small town somewhere. There also looks like there's maybe some election or voting promotional things to the left of that photo.

I would be suspicious not that this woman doesn't exist I think but that her photos were being used by someone else.   Maybe you should join up to EM and try to contact her through there to see if they are one and the same person. There's a possibility that she would be pissed at you for this if it is her but considering you are having all these doubts anyway, what can you lose?

Billy is right though, if you aren't sure and can't trust, you probably shouldn't visit.

Oh, and btw, my wife and I also find the computer illiteracy line a little strange.

[Handycam72]

Hi Tim and welcome to RWD.

I happy to know you found my topic of interest and saw it for what it was, a tool for learning from my experience

Looking at your experience here, I would say you can contact her on EM and see what happens. But to me there are to many red flags.

You have suspicion already, you are seeing the red flags, but just like I did in my case you are trying to justify those red flags in your head and make reasons for them, in order to fit in with what you want to believe. Often referred too  as "The Fantasy".

I do not buy the "I don't know how to use a computer" story at all. You will find it very difficult to find someone in Odessa who can't use a keyboard or have access to a computer under the age of say 45 (Disclaimer: age only used as an example ) Also the not having a camera, I had that one given to me aswell. The sending of the passport, I do not believe for one moment that anyone would send a copy of their passport to someone that is in reality, a complete stranger.

If I had this happen to me now, after my experience, I would quite simply walk away from her and not look back.  

[I/O]

scanned copies of her passport (necessary when we take someone as a client) which was made, as you can see on 2nd page, back in 2002 year.

Is the Uki system so different from the Ru system? Ru International passports of more than 5 years aren't easy to obtain. Certainly not in 2002. 2002 + 5 = 2007 ...??? National passports are changed at various ages and the numbers don't crunch for that either based on my knowledge. Maybe Uki is different?

Apart from the theory above, Timothy, honestly buddy, this is a big steaming heap of BS. There is no way known any agency will send you a copy of a clients passport. No way known will a client send you a copy of their passport. Sure, they'll invite you to show up and they'll do a quick switch. Honey won't look like honey did in the photos. No way will she be lending her phone to anyone or more importantly, which phone because she is likely to have more than one. Can't type? Oh gimme a break. What's her education? Scraping chicken sch!t off the floors of some village shed? She is 25 and got past 4th grade right? She used a computer, period. She can type. BTW, they ALWAYS answer their phone.

The answer to your original question is neither. It's just an agency shaft.

[viking]

http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23456&start=0

Just a quick examples of some passport scams. Honestly, sending you a scanned passport really means nothing. And when you think about it, what woman in her right mind wants her passport posted in the internet. These are valuable personal items.

From your posts you are fighting this argument about her being "real", aganist some significant red flags. All you have done so far is write letters, received some photos, and maybe hearing some sweet voice at the end of a phone call. You are trying to defend your position about a woman you dont know.

Here is the bottom line. You can continue believing you are right and in the spring, go and meet her. Horefully as time passes you will be lucky and not get the money letter about expenses in meeting you and more lucky that she shows up and finally more lucky she is truly an honest woman with honest intentions. Then of course, there will be the issues of personal chemistry. Another iffy thing.

Or, start to write to some others as well in the same city. Start to compare letters, develop some type of relationship with them and have a solid back up plan for your trip. Sorry man, but there are so many women out there that would never put you through all this that I think that you need to expand your horizons if for no other purpose than to experience how otheres would respond to you.

[Turboguy]

We often say here something like "If something seems wrong it probably is" and it seems that there is enough wrong to raise your suspicions.   When you consider that you are using an agency that many consider higly suspect and she is from a place that has a high number of shady things and woman who are not serious I think you could spend your time and money better eleswhere.   

It is easy enough to find problems in international dating without looking for them.  I think you have found a situation that will be nothing but problems.   There are lots of women in the FSU.   Use an agency where you have a better chance of finding one.  Use a method where you will be fairly sure you are really writing to the woman you think you are.   Pick towns where the possiblity of success exists to a greater degree. 

I have had women send copies of passports.  I never had one do it that was not a scam.  I think Vikings advice was good except since the city in question is Odessa I might disagree a little with the part of writing others from the same city.   I would suggest a near by city like Kherson or one of the other cities close enough to Odessa to reach without too much difficulty.  Finding your dream girl in Odessa is not an easy task.