Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[kievstar]

Aloe, I never put my wife on the scale before marriage. Also with a billion plus women in the world you need something to narrow it down - can't date them all.  There is a reason why search engines on dating sites have age, weight, and height.  I know your shorter than 176cm. 

[Aloe]

I know your shorter than 176cm. 

What does my height have to do with anything? lol That was so out of the blue

[Gator]

Much of what these PUAs teach are self-improvement tactics (get in shape, dress better, learn to be comfortable in crowds, learn to relax around women).

I never read the PUA stuff.  If this is "much of what these PUAs teach,"  sounds like common sense.
 

Many tactics are things I normally do or not do. (Don't try to impress with material things, be playful and tease, blah blah blah). Would I marry a woman that falls for these? Yup. I have no choice!

More common sense and personality. 

Some tactics are geared towards creating initial tension (or attraction) with women who will chase you instead of you chasing them. (Like not responding to an SMS).

Now we depart from common sense.  Adding tension to what could already be a nervous experience for some women seems WRONG!   I never felt the need and never tried.  Does this mean I left some money (poonanny) on the table? 

In my opinion, CHARM goes a long way, and charm is the opposite of tension.  Charm is the art of helping women relax, feel even better about themselves, and find something interesting about the man.

Many RW (more than AW) have told me exactly how they wanted to be treated.  And they are adamant about it.  That is comparable to being given a key to their heart.  Why not help them get into a mood to reveal such?  Tension will not do it.

[Daveman]

In my opinion, CHARM goes a long way, and charm is the opposite of tension.  Charm is the art of helping women relax, feel even better about themselves, and find something interesting about the man.

Agreed... in my experience, when a man is relaxed and comfortable just being himself around a woman, she naturally falls into the comfort zone.  No special behavior required really. 

[SFandEE]

I have been a big proponent of charm on this thread.  I am also sympathetic to the need to have a plan for times when you are uncomfortable, especially those who who are uncomfortable around women or their ideal women.

Hopefully the polishing process and discussion that is happening on various threads on this forum will lead closer to that confidence and charm so that the plan--the frame can be.  "I will be myself.  Let the consequences be what they will be."  There is a whole lot of attractiveness in that alone.

[Seeker]

Hopefully the polishing process and discussion that is happening on various threads on this forum will lead closer to that confidence and charm so that the plan--the frame can be.  "I will be myself.  Let the consequences be what they will be."  There is a whole lot of attractiveness in that alone.

That has always been my "Game".  Be myself.  It is the only thing I know I can be good at.

[Jumper]

nice trip report Two bit!





as far as the big side bar here of the *game and framing stuff* goes..

i've been out of this a long time, so may not know what i'm talking about lol


 i do think culturally the differences are going to make a lot of what some western PUA's teach worthless, and some of the whole gaming stuff as well.
 really what they seem to  teach is about initial attraction and interaction anyway..
"cold meetings in a club or public" how to get a conversation going and keep a girl interested
 in you for a date or past the first date.
the tips   can be  good stuff or guys who have difficulty in meeting new women.



but for  the RW scenerio,, it's usually already way past that stage ?
they are already interested.its up to the guy to just be normal, perhaps at least slighty funny or interesting ,  and not screw it up. lol (if he is really interested in her)
 
and  even your situation with RW,  where you are going with mamba ,and girls who are not really looking for a foreign guy
,still much of this you are already past and no real need to play push and pull games,
 they ARE interested or they wouldn't have met you in the first place..
so simply act like it.

The depth of their interest is of course the issue..
but you're not trying to hit on some random and possibly already romantically involved girl
 in a club, this girl from mamba has already decided to meet you ..
and your level of interest is going to directly and quickly determine hers..


at that point  we are  back to basically YOU being an interesting person for that  particular individual

IMHO  ..games,or keeping things in your own frame etc ,

 arn't going to do anything but shorten or lengthen the time ,
that they would make the same positive or negative decision about you as a person anyway ..

and a man playing coy or hard to get is a foreign concept  to them for the most part ..  i think it just adds confusion to an already slightly alien dating situation.

to me one of the very interesting things about many RW(yes even in the US)  
is often their very open directness. .
you just don't need to play games or  guess what they are thinking or feeling,
watch their actions, it's not rocket science with them ,and they certainly don't seem to want it to be.
They tend to make decisions pretty quickly and act on them. and they expect you to as well. You either really like them or you don't, and they expect you to act accordingly .
If they are playing games, its generally easy to see ..
and i also think if they are in this case ,it stems more than a bit from your lead., meaning they know they are one of many on the dance card this week.  

When dating many.. i think the dynamic is far different .. and you need to narrow things far faster than you think,as how they act is greatly hinged on whether they think you've made some basic decision about them already .. or are still window shopping .. which they assume..
it's not that they hold it against you ,,
its that they are either the one ,or they arnt .. its far more black and white ,and mostly they are pragmatic.

i don't like making such generalities about a huge populace ,it seems silly at best ..
 
but I think the general RW responses in this thread bare that out somewhat if you read carefully their thoughts?


honestly  i think if you can't be quickly decisive and narrow the field almost instantly ,
 it just doesn't work very well..and the dynamic with ALL of them ,is not what they expect or used to ,or want , and they arnt going to "be themselves' until they think you have real interest.(their perspective of real interest ,not yours)
and it becomes a *frame*in itself, one  that is not in your best interest.
  

honestly  in a week or two weeks , anyone feels you can't really learn the person ,
 so at best they can hope to be the girl you choose to later follow up with.
nothing wrong with that ,but that dating dynamic is just going to be different until they know that first very basic and simple choice is made  ,that they are the one to hold your interest enough to learn about them.

the gaming stuff tries to flip that the other way ..their interest in you ...being the deciding factor instead,and   it just goes against the very cultural  core  of how  things operate there,  imho.

[Chicagoguy]

AJ    -     Good Post !

It matches my thoughts and experiences. 

[Gator]

AJ,

While you have been out of the loop for a long time, you insights are still valid.  Chicagoguy and I dated older women, and also feel the same.  The men with much experience dating younger RW are saying the same as you.  That is why RWD is valuable.

There is a difference with RW, and those men who claim otherwise have either dated a RW anomaly or the difference is going over their head.

For those of you who don't know AJ, I believe he possesses as much game as any PUA professor, and it is all natural and intuitive with AJ, not learned from PUA lectures. 

When I joined the RW forums in 2002, AJ told one story when first dating his wife.  IIRC, he had just met his future wife and they went for a walk.  She took the lead, and AJ on purpose let her lose him.  She had to stop and find him while he was enjoying a stroll through a store.  [AJ - please correct me if my memory is bad.]

Such is not in PUA 101.  Some may take AJ's action as a game, yet there was no pretense, no ploy.  Just a charming man saying I am also the strong man.   

[TwoBitBandit]

I’ve had a week to decompress so I wanted to share some final thoughts.

My goal in writing a trip report was to help illustrate the reality of chasing Russian girls for those that are new.  Some posters commented on my surprising openness and candor in this report, and the reason I’ve done that is to help make it useful.  If I gloss over what was difficult, or fail to admit when things didn’t go right, then I’d be doing those readers a disservice.  Certainly, this process is far more difficult than I expected when I started it.

I want to make one post in summary to state my opinion about what worked and what didn’t work on this trip.  Every success and failure in life is simply feedback.  If you pay attention to it, you can learn quickly.   When I was a university student I came across this short story that I always remembered:

Day 1: I walk down the street. I fall into a deep hole. It takes me a long time to climb out.
Day 2: I walk down the street. I fall into the hole. I climb out.
Day 3: I walk down the street. I see the hole but I fall in anyway. I climb out.
Day 4: I walk down the street. I walk around the hole.
Day 5: I walk down another street.

I think my pre-trip preparation went better than my on-ground time.  The things that I did that worked out well were:

Understanding Russian.  It’s not always obvious in this trip report, but virtually all of my interaction with the Russian girls in this trip report was in Russian.  I don’t consider myself exceptionally gifted with understanding languages, but I understand Russian at an advanced level.  I can read a newspaper (slowly) without a dictionary and understand almost all of the content and my conversational Russian is excellent.  I can plod my way through modern literature, but reading classic literature (Dostoyevsky, etc.) is way beyond my ability.  My time investment to reach this level is about 1400 hours.  I might have been able to pull off what I did at around 600-800 hours.  There are lots of approaches that one can take to finding a Russian spouse, but the particular one I chose requires a lot of Russian. 

Regardless of whether you learn as much Russian as me, any Russian you learn will open a lot of doors.  If you only invest 145 hours and go through Pimsleur levels 1-3 it will help you tremendously to communicate simple ideas, understand numbers, ask for directions, negotiate taxi fares, make simple conversation, etc.

Writing lots of girls.  I wrote to hundreds of girls in Novosibirsk.  I got about a one-third initial response rate, which made it easy to justify dropping any girl that didn’t seem interesting.  I dropped any girl that (a) didn’t match my level of disclosure (e.g., she only wrote one sentence back for each three paragraphs I wrote) (b) had worse grammar than I did (c) seemed like a party girl (d) seemed like an airhead or had no direction in life or (e) just said something weird.  There were a handful of girls that I started writing and their actions seemed to scream out “I’m an ADD party girl but I’m really hot,” and I just cut them loose.  It was tempting to keep writing them but it was just a waste of time.  I’ve wasted time on previous trips chasing these types of girls.  It’s fun, but it just burns limited time.

Professional profile editing and translation.  I had my profile translated as well as a bunch of common questions and answer such as “why aren’t you married?” “why do you speak Russian?” “Why Russian girls?” etc.  I have to plug Anastassia Ash who helped me tremendously.

Making it very clear that I’m coming to their city with an approximate timeframe.  This helped a lot.  I didn’t write very long: I started writing about six weeks before I touched down in Novosibirsk.

My mistakes while writing were:

Not getting more pictures.  Some of the girls only post one or two pictures and it’s really hard to get a clear idea of what they look like.  Most of the time when I wasn’t interested in a girl on-ground it was because I just wasn’t attracted.  I could have saved myself a lot of time by getting pictures by email.

Height.  I’m not that particular about height, but I met a couple of girls who might not have even been five feet high.  I want to at least be able to look them in the eye.

I think most of my mistakes were on the ground.  It certainly wasn’t a disaster and I met a lot of sincere girls.  Almost all of the girls wanted to spend more time with me, so I’m clearly doing something right.

I think my on-ground mistakes were:

Trying to meet too many girls.  My writing campaign worked out so well that I had tons of girls that I wanted to meet.  I had great exchanges of letters with more than forty girls.  Some of the women wrote really well, and I wanted to meet them just because they wrote so well.  The mistake was that I should have qualified the girls better and dropped unattractive and short girls to the wayside.  I got too interested some of the girls’ writing instead of looking at the whole package.  I should have put more attention into fewer girls.

Certainly, for the number of girls that I did meet, I think I did a pretty good job of juggling them.

New girls in the pipeline. I got so busy with dating girls and messing around in my spare time that I stopped keeping up with writing girls that I had planned to meet later in this trip.  This agitated some of them since I was on a schedule of responding to their messages in one or two days and suddenly I vanished.  I should have spent less time screwing around and more time strategizing.

 Random thoughts:

On Anna…. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what went wrong in this interaction.  Anna is a girl with a lot of options, and these types of girls are difficult to catch in any culture.  If there was a mistake on my part, it was almost certainly along the lines of what Jooky and GQBlues suggested, which was that I just not ‘alpha’ enough early on.  Anna threw a lot of shіt tests at me: I identified some of them and did OK, but some of them I probably missed and failed.  Anna is what Gator referred to as a “challenge girl”: in addition to having that “I’m the hot girl” frame she also has a strong personality.  Anna has a lot of experience at handling men.  I can tell: she just gives off that vibe.  To catch a girl like Anna you have to have a really strong frame.

There were some comments in the report suggesting that I lost Anna because I didn’t drop every other girl after our first date.   I had a fun time with her on our first date, yet she called me in the afternoon the next day and expected me to drop all my other plans (and be rude to those other people) just because she called?  And then she’s going to be snotty just because I didn’t go along with it?  Is that the request of a quality girl or a self-entitled bitch?  Certainly, as I spent more time with Anna I cleared more time for her, and toward the end a few days in a row, and even proposed VO at our last meeting.  I think that would have been a reasonable expectation for her.  But after the first date?

I also believe that you have to be careful not to step into a girl’s frame too quickly: it demonstrates low value.   Some here have suggested is that the problem is that I didn’t step into her frame: if I had stepped into her frame on day 2 when she called me, it all would have worked out better.  I disagree: I think that would have just made me look weak.  My mistake was not demonstrating high enough value that she was willing to step into my frame.

It’s the man’s job to be a little bit colder and have a stronger frame.  (If he wants to be a man and not a herb.)  It’s better to choose having hand and risk losing the girl than to be a doormat.  The doormat strategy is never the right long-term choice.  Certainly a man can be softer as he builds more attraction and the woman stops throwing shіt tests at him, but he must always keep a stronger frame than her.

Part of the problem with dating this type of girl is that their aura is intoxicating and it is easy to lose your frame.  If there was a mistake on my part with this girl, it was along of the lines of what Jooky and GQBlues suggested, which is that I failed to maintain my frame in her presence.  Anna threw a lot of shіt tests my way.  I identified a lot of them but I’m sure I missed some.

One of the things that I even now feel about dating in Russia is that it’s a little disorienting.  When I plan a date in Silicon Valley, I plan everything.  I decide where we’re going, when to meet, what we’re doing, how we’re getting there, what we’re eating, etc.  I’m certainly not running a dictatorship: I’m open to ideas from the woman and I’ll negotiate if she has another idea.  But I’m setting the “default” plan.  This is a little hard to do in Russia.  Is the zoo worth going to?  How do I get there?   What bus can we take and where do we meet it?  Are there good restaurants nearby or do we have to return to the center?  Where do I buy tickets for a boat cruise?  And so it’s much harder to plan a good date and be the leader.  I certainly felt this with Anna, who grabbed control of a couple of our dates but probably lost some respect for me because of it.

As Gator pointed out, it’s hard for a reader to see what’s really going on, and it’s certainly filtered through my own experience.  It’s interesting to me that I attracted so many different opinions from different people on how to handle the situation.

In the end, all that a man really has is his own reasoning and intuition.

On “Frame”…. Some the posters here suggested that I’ve overused this term.  However, it’s my trip report and I use it because I want to explain my reasoning.  I find “frame” to be a useful paradigm for analyzing the context of social interactions, and so I use it.

On “Game”….  A lot of the material in this field is focused on picking up young twentysomething skanks in nightclubs.  The VH1 show “The Pickup Artist” with the guy in the fuzzy hat certainly doesn’t help the image.  Yet, not all the material is like this, and the concepts in both cases are universal: (a) don’t supplicate (b) you’re the prize, not her (c) control the frame (d) act confident at all times.  These concepts of handling women transcend all cultures. 

There’s been quite a bit of discussion in this thread about cultural differences between dating in Russia and in urban centers in the United States.  Certainly, there are differences.  One of the things that’s great about dating Russian girls is that they expect you to be the man, and they won’t try to undermine you as much.  The career girls that I date here in Silicon Valley want a real man, but if you step up to the plate they’re always trying to undermine you and it’s a power struggle to stay on top.  Russian girls will let you lead as long as you prove that you’re capable without trying to constantly test your frame.  And I agree that the cocky “I’m Bond.  James Bond.” frame is probably overkill for most Russian girls: as a put-together foreigner you already have enough status not to have to do that.  A stand-up guy with a career, who is in good shape and can dress himself doesn’t need that to demonstrate higher value.

Some game material is oriented toward picking up skanks in nightclubs, strategy on approaching and opening sets, etc.  I agree that a lot of the verbal games recommended in these books would come off as weird to Russian girls.

There were some suggestions that I drop “Game” with Russian girls.  I think it represents a misunderstanding of Game, at least according to my definition.  Why would I want to drop “(a) don’t supplicate (b) you’re the prize, not her (c) control the frame (d) act confident at all times” with Russian girls?  It’s true that specific advice geared toward American men could be inappropriate in Russia, but the larger concept of “be a real man” is appropriate in any culture.

Conclusion…  I’m not sure what will happen with Evgenia, but she’s a candidate for a VO trip.  We’ve exchanged a couple of letters and she’s very sincere.  Galina is still on vacation.  Not sure about Yulia but we’ve exchanged a couple of messages.  Anna and I are in communication but she’s very aloof: it’s probably not going to go anywhere.

One of the things I’ve found is that when I’m in Russia, the girl I want to chase is the one that turns me on the most.  However, after I return to the United States the girl I want to chase is the one that was just a pleasure to be with.

Writing a trip report is distracting.  I wanted to write a really good trip report, so I put time into thinking what I wanted to say, writing it and carefully editing it.  Then, I spent a lot of time reading responses and writing back.  Since writing a good trip report was a goal of my trip I’m glad I did it and I’m glad that the report was received well by most of the readers… but I don’t know if I’d do another trip report like this.

[TwoBitBandit]

But anyway, the fact you authored a very popular and worthy thread, would you like to share some final thoughts about your trip with everyone?

OK, you got it.  And if nothing else, I can certainly agree that I authored a very popular thread, having reached first place among trip reports for the number of responses and second place for the number of views.

[ML]

Thanks a lot for all the time and effort you put into this TR.  :-)

[Gator]

One of the things I’ve found is that when I’m in Russia, the girl I want to chase is the one that turns me on the most. 

You are still young and thus hormonally impaired! 

However, after I return to the United States the girl I want to chase is the one that was just a pleasure to be with.

Having fun with a woman and feeling comfortable and energized turns me on more than her physical aspects, provided that I have already found her physically acceptable (at least a 7 or 8 in my book).

"Better late than never, but better never late" certainly applies here.  The key is to recognize and appreciate such compatibility at the time.

Somewhat akin to Andy Warhol's promise of 15 minutes of fame,  all of us will have 100 great days in our life.  The key is to recognize at the moment that you are having such a day and then let go, embracing it completely without restraint.

Writing a trip report is distracting.  ....Since writing a good trip report was a goal of my trip I’m glad I did it and I’m glad that the report was received well by most of the readers… but I don’t know if I’d do another trip report like this.

Besides 1) providing  all the new men an excellent tutorial and 2) entertaining the experienced members, you are 3) helping yourself - writing a report focuses your thoughts.

TwoBit, good luck with your follow up endeavors.

[Misha]

I had a fun time with her on our first date, yet she called me in the afternoon the next day and expected me to drop all my other plans (and be rude to those other people) just because she called?  And then she’s going to be snotty just because I didn’t go along with it? 

Well, yes and yes. Let's see, hot attractive woman calls you for a date and you say no. She takes a hit to her ego, and you expect her not to be "snotty"? 

Is that the request of a quality girl or a self-entitled bitch?

It was the reaction that  I would have expected of an attractive Russian woman who had just been turned down for a date   

Certainly, as I spent more time with Anna I cleared more time for her, and toward the end a few days in a row, and even proposed VO at our last meeting.  I think that would have been a reasonable expectation for her.  But after the first date?

What is the purpose of dating women? IMHO, the goal is to find a woman worth pursuing. When you do, you pursue her. Otherwise, you risk having an endless series of first dates that go nowhere.

I also believe that you have to be careful not to step into a girl’s frame too quickly: it demonstrates low value.

That or it demonstrates to the woman in question that you are really interested in HER 

Some here have suggested is that the problem is that I didn’t step into her frame: if I had stepped into her frame on day 2 when she called me, it all would have worked out better.  I disagree: I think that would have just made me look weak.  My mistake was not demonstrating high enough value that she was willing to step into my frame.

Demonstrating high enough value? How exactly would you have done this?

It’s the man’s job to be a little bit colder and have a stronger frame.

Last comment, IMHO if you are going to pursue this strategy with RW while dating in Russia, I just can't ever see it getting you very far with any women  Cold and aloof are hardly the sought after traits that I have heard RW yearning for in Russia 

[Chicagoguy]

In my opinion you did a pretty good job with your visit and had a very nice trip report. Hindsite is 20/20 and I imagine you learned from any mistakes.

I too had those experiences of being led around like a baby and I was not sure how to overcome them. I certainly did not like it.The only time I had some control was in Moscow where I had visited 10 times and knew my way around and where to go - especially if my date was from another city.

For my fiance, I had us meet in Turkey on our second date so I could get her out of her home turf and see what she was like there [ a fish out of water ]. In my case she was excellent. Every bit as good as me, and I had traveled to 12 other countries before.

Thanks for your effort.

[GQBlues]

OK, you got it.  And if nothing else, I can certainly agree that I authored a very popular thread, having reached first place among trip reports for the number of responses and second place for the number of views.

Bandit-

Excellent report. Thank you! I think your report more than incited just a passing interest for many. I'm certain you've helped and inspired a few folks about to take the plunge.

2 focal aspects you pointed out in your closing post, pre-trip correspondence to multiple women (and keeping a 'captive' audience) and being disoriented (especially the first few days of arriving and going on a dating mode full bore at the same time, then having to maintain your composure ) were pretty challenging for me, too.

FWIW - what I did on the pre-trip correspondence was I tried to balance between being a) somewhat impersonal ( not to get too personal and emotional since I have not met any of the women in person), b) be different from all their other men/suitors, and c) still keep the women interested. So what I did was create a personal website that was layered with multiple pages. The front pages were my thoughts and intent for going to Russia written both in English and Russian. Then the ensuing pages were pictures of me, friends, things I do, had done, are doing...places, etc...that was accompanied by daily/weekly installment of either sharing my present stories, thoughts, activity, etc...Then a 'more about me' page where I re-told stages in my childhood in a storybook fashion.

I always tried to make it like I was talking to each one specifically by using a lot of 'you' without ever crossing the line. So when someone reads it, it have the flavor I was writing only to her. This was before MySpace/Facebook and it was different too in a sense that it was not a networking page like those two. This was also before skype and messenger.

I gave the link to the page once a woman catches my interest with the caveat that she have a choice to either 'read' whatever entry I had and respond by sending me a message or we can exchange emails. I encouraged the former and didn't really know how they'll take it. Eventually, it proved to be the very best thing for me since it gave me an avenue to write 'all of them' without having to write to 'each of them' despite giving them the feeling I was. The response and feedback from the ladies were more than favorable. It felt as though they couldn't get enough of it judging by their responses.

Of course the messages I received, along with the daily hit counter, were hidden. Checking the 'hit counter' everyday was pretty fun! It was obvious it was fast becoming a mutual source of addiction up until the time I had to leave. I kept all of their attention everyday with minimal effort. 'Writing' to 20, 30, 40, 50 of them was pretty darn 'easy'.

So in a sense, I totally "controlled the frame" from the get-go. 

I had since deleted the webpage but kept the English version of the front page, if you want I can send it to you by PM, just let me know.

Thanks for the report. Gator is right, you both have the charm and your youth. There's much still awaiting you along the trails you've yet to blaze. So much to look forward to and much, much, much to be excited about.  

[TwoBitBandit]

 I haven’t been posting on these boards lately.  It often seems to me that every topic has been pretty much beat to death.   Most of the ongoing topics are on nub questions (should I go on a VO trip to meet the girl I’m paying thirty dollars an hour to chat with on AnastasiaWeb.com?) or on details of members’ relationships (like BillyB’s thread “Life Changes...Part Deux”).
 
When I was first starting to read these boards a few years ago, I found the trip reports to be the most fascinating part.  The whole idea and process of looking abroad for a relationship seemed very abstract until I started reading the trip reports and understanding what went on when guys were actually on the ground.  So, having become a bit of a veteran at this endeavor, I decided to write my own.  I feel the ‘battleground’ has changed in the past few years with agencies becoming less important and relevant.  My own motivation was to show how you can get off the beaten path and forge your own path.  I went to Russia alone and the only professionals I enlisted were to provide a flat and register my visa.  (I speak Russian fluently; a guy who didn't would need a full-time interpreter to do what I did.)
 
I was originally hesitant to post a trip report because I’ve seen how harsh certain posters here treat others with a lack of tact that’s only possible on the internet.  Certainly, I’ve had some antagonists in this thread, but they were easy enough to ignore.  It takes some life experience and internal clarity to separate out useful “tough love” advice from what is simply clueless or malicious drivel given under the guise of tough love.  Advice is cheap.  What can help a man more than anything in this endeavor (or any other endeavor) is an honest self-inventory and frame.  If you know exactly where you’re heading, who you are, what you want and what your strengths and weaknesses are, sorting out what is good advice, what is drivel and what is just plain antagonism becomes easy.


I found that the search for a woman in the FSU made me do a lot of soul searching.  It is so much easier to capture a quality woman there that you must be clear about what you want, otherwise you end up like a kid in a candy store.  The quality of girls is higher, and the chase isn’t so tedious as it is back home.  Time, however, is limited, so you must be clear about what you want and be ready to grab it off the shelf as soon as you see it.  One of my own characteristics is to evaluate things slowly.  It’s not that I’m indecisive: once I’ve made a decision I’m tenacious about carrying it out to completion.  It’s easy enough to figure out if you have chemistry with someone right away, but figuring out the character of someone takes time.  It’s easy to go out for dinner a lot, drink wine and go to bed together, but it’s much harder to figure out someone’s character.  The true test of character is in how people respond to adversity, and you can’t figure that out quickly.  I’m always surprised by the one-week wonders on these boards who fly to the FSU with their K1 paperwork in their hands.
 
At the end of my trip there were four “prospects” for a relationship.  My relationship with Anna, which generated a lot of interest and controversy in this thread, quickly fell apart after my return.  I wasn’t surprised by that.  We wrote a couple of letters and spoke on the phone a couple of times.  In retrospect, I would have liked to spent more time with her but I don’t think it would have worked out differently.  Anna definitely had some “high-maintenance” aspects to her personality that probably would have driven me crazy with time.  If I had been able to date her on an “uncompressed” time scale it’s possible that things would have evolved differently.
 
One of the things that I’ve found on my last two visit-many trips to the FSU is that the compressed time schedule doesn’t work in your favor.  Compressing two months worth of dates into two weeks is just a recipe for things to not go right.
 
Earlier in my dating “career” I resented the “dating games” that chasing girls required.  I’ve since become comfortable with them, and actually come to appreciate how some of them are useful and how you can pick up on clues about another person’s belief systems and personality by how they act.
 
 Besides Anna, there were three other girls that showed some possibility.  One was Yulia (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11863.450), who I met very close to the end of my trip.  Yulia was cute, blonde, light-eyed, thin and intelligent.  We only met one time shortly before I had to return home, so our time together was limited.  My date with her was fun and lasted for awhile, but the chemistry was mixed.  We wrote for awhile and spoke on the phone a couple of times.  She wanted to come to the United States, and asked me to write an invitation for her.  I suggested that an invitation from an American man was just as likely to hurt her chances as to help it, since the consulate may interpret the relationship as her intent to emigrate.  She insisted, so I wrote an invitation.  Then she wrote me back and said I didn’t understand her: what she wanted was me to sponsor her for a K1 visa.  She pointed out that (of course) it wasn’t for real; it was a convenient way to get a visa.  Of course, this would have been a bad path for me to pursue for many reasons.  I was so turned off by the suggestion that I just stopped writing her.  The chemistry between us on our one meeting was mixed, so I didn’t feel bad about it.
 
 
Evgenia (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11863.msg233951#msg233951) was a real sweetheart.  I met her twice and we had a really great time together.  She sent me lots of pictures and we wrote for awhile.   As I write this, I’m recalling all of the pictures she sent me in cute outfits from when she went to Sicily.  Eventually the letter writing fizzled out and she didn’t respond to one of my letters.  I didn’t follow up.  Despite our chemistry and the fun we seem to have together, I just felt like she wasn’t a good match for me.  She wasn’t quite as cute as the other girls and  was a little short for me.  She occasionally made comments in person and by phone expressing surprise that a guy like me was single.  I think my “dating market value” was higher than hers and she also thought so, but I just so thoroughly enjoyed her company that I pursued her anyway.  On some level I knew I wasn’t going to pursue it, and I think she sensed it, so she eventually stopped writing when I took no action.
 
My dialog with Galina ( http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11863.msg234964#msg234964 ), the final prospect, started to become more interesting and measured once I returned home.  Galina is a bit of a shy girl, but underlying that was a lot of confidence.  She works as a manager of a group of lawyers at some kind of firm.  She has a great job and some ambition, but she was also soft, cute, and sweet.  I had great chemistry with her.  I admired her personality: she moved out on her own, was educated and a leader in her career.  She seemed so much less frivolous than many of the young women I’d met.  She had a strong personality but accepted the leadership of a strong man.  She made an effort to write me in English, even though I wrote her and spoke with her in Russian.  As our dialog evolved, I decided that I wanted to see her again.
 
As winter rolled around, I decided not to go back to Novosibirsk.  Going to Novosibirsk in June is one thing… but who wants to go to Novosibirsk in winter?  So, I decided to invite her to meet me in Paris.
 
It’s getting late for me, so perhaps I’ll write what happened next another time…

[wicheese]

TwoBitBandit,


I'll be interested in how the rest of your adventure finished.  Also, just to note the value of trip reports, your report along with another poster from another site made enough of an impression on me to give the FSU another try, this time using Mamba, when I was ready to end the adventure.  The end result now, two years and 12 visits later (here and there with the same lady) is a wondering relationship with a great lady.


So my comment to you and others thinking about writing about their experienc is, never discount the value it has with other members as their are some of us who really appreciate it. 

[ML]

I went to Russia alone and the only professionals I enlisted were to provide a flat and register my visa.  (I speak Russian fluently; a guy who didn't would need a full-time interpreter to do what I did.)

Thanks for your nice posting.  Just one small point. 

I have been to FSU dozens of times and met with dozens of Gals as well as business associates.  I know only 50 Russian or Ukrainian words and no sentences.  I use zero interpreters as I only meet/deal with those who speak English.

So it can be done without speaking Russian or without an interpreter.
But, maybe your  point was you were unlimited in who you met.

[Gator]

Anna definitely had some “high-maintenance” aspects to her personality that probably would have driven me crazy with time.  If I had been able to date her on an “uncompressed” time scale it’s possible that things would have evolved differently.

One of the things that I’ve found on my last two visit-many trips to the FSU is that the compressed time schedule doesn’t work in your favor.  Compressing two months worth of dates into two weeks is just a recipe for things to not go right.

I think I recall Anna and thought she had possibilities.  "Definitely" is a strong word especially in contrast with your correct description that "compressed time dating" is not good for seeking clarity.  Nevertheless, compressed time dating should suffice for indicating whether a followup trip is promising and thus justified, and if so, with whom.  Based on Anna's own merits and in comparison with others, you were not feeling it.  So, yes, "Next!."
 

Then she wrote me back and said I didn’t understand her: what she wanted was me to sponsor her for a K1 visa.

 
Silly little girl.   
 

Evgenia... wasn’t quite as cute as the other girls and  was a little short for me.

 
 
Indifference is not a good starting point.  Which begs the question why did you not stop this sooner?
 

Galina .... has a great job and some ambition, but she was also soft, cute, and sweet.  I had great chemistry with her.

 
Let me add this up:  Not desperate to move   Fun to be with   Cute   Making a good effort to progress the relationship.    Those four identify a highly promising woman.
 

It’s getting late for me, so perhaps I’ll write what happened next another time…

If so, I would be grateful. 

[TwoBitBandit]

   

your report along with another poster from another site made enough of an impression on me to give the FSU another try, this time using Mamba, when I was ready to end the adventure.  The end result now, two years and 12 visits later (here and there with the same lady) is a wondering relationship with a great lady.

I’m glad you said that.  One of the things I wanted to do in writing trip reports was to encourage guys to stop feeding at the trough of MOB.  The agency thing is pretty much dead in Russia: the economy has improved enough that very few high-value women join agencies.  Ukraine is still poor enough that the MOB “industry” is still going strong, so there are still women worth catching there.  However, you’re feeding in shark-infested waters.  In years past, the only way to make contact with women was using agencies.  However, access to the internet is so ubiquitous now that even working-class girls in Ukraine can get access if they want.  So, you can just make contact with them directly and bypass the whole “dirty barrel” of MOB.  And you should want to bypass it, because it is one stinky barrel!  Every time I left the office of an agency I felt like I wanted to take a shower.  If you have any skill at all at attracting women you’ll do better on your own these days, whether you choose mamba.ru or any of the other sites out there. 
 
Fortunately, I can say that I’ve already accomplished my goal.  I remember thinking, “If I can stop just one guy from feeding at the trough, then I’ve been successful with my goal of writing a trip report.  And I stopped Wicheese from feeding at the trough!  So, I’ve been successful!  ()
 

I think I recall Anna and thought she had possibilities.  "Definitely" is a strong word especially in contrast with your correct description that "compressed time dating" is not good for seeking clarity.  Nevertheless, compressed time dating should suffice for indicating whether a followup trip is promising and thus justified, and if so, with whom.  Based on Anna's own merits and in comparison with others, you were not feeling it.  So, yes, "Next!."

Some of the commentary on this thread has said that if I hadn’t been such a dickhead I would have had a chance with her.  I’ll concede, perhaps there is a point in there.  I have a weakness, which is this: my attitude toward dating is calibrated to the grrrrls of Silicon Valley.  In Silicon Valley, being “beta” doesn’t get you anything but your right hand.  If you’re making $100K, $200K, $300K, $400K, it doesn’t matter.   Silicon Valley is like that: if you ended up here for whatever reason, you have the skills to make six figures.  I’ve been reading in the news and places that there’s some kind of a bad economy going on or something, but I haven’t noticed at all.  I used to be polite and chat with headhunters on the phone and politely say “thanks, but not thanks” in response to their emails.  But now I don’t respond to their emails.  When they call me on the phone I tell them to fuck off and take their middle-management job at Qualcomm or Apple or Google or Facebook or Groupon or wherever and go shove it up their ass: it’s not worth my time to go interview for it.   The economy here in Silicon Valley is just fine, thank you very much.
 
Despite the fact that it’s raining money, there’s no women anywhere: on the floor where I work, there are 106 men and six women.  (And only one of the six women is even dateable… and she’s married.)  Everyone here is making a quarter of a million a year.  If that’s the only thing you have going for you, you don’t have anything at all.  If you want to catch a girl that is even worth your time to hang out with, you have to be a dickhead.  And if you want to catch a girl that’s interesting or intriguing, you have to be an insolent, unapologetic dickhead.  And if you want to catch a girl that’s worth investing in a relationship with, you have to be a cocky, insolent, self-absorbed, unapologetic dickhead.  And if you want to catch the attention of a girl who’s marriageable and who you would consider to make the mother of your children, you must be an alpha, overconfident, cocky, insolent, incorrigible, cocksure, pushy, self-assured, unflappable, self-absorbed, gutsy unapologetic dickhead.  (And that itself is contradictory when you think about it: the assholish characteristics that made her consider you eligible contraindicate the success of your relationship.)  The grrrrls are all making six figures themselves if they’ve figured out how to eek out a living in a place where taxes are high and a decent apartment is two thousand a month.  You’ve got to be exciting to catch a girl.  Their cute little heads are filled with layers upon layers of university-inspired feminist crap.
 
This is really the polar opposite of dating in the FSU, where “upper-beta” really is a viable frame for catching girls.  In the FSU, there  are lots of men who know how to talk, be cocky and seduce girls but few men of any actual substance.  Men who are intelligent and successful but a bit understated really are a catch in the FSU.  The irony is that in the FSU, it really is difficult to be “beta” because the system is so corrupt.  In the west, you can follow the rules and end up ahead.  In the FSU, if you follow the rules you end up at the bottom.
 
So anyways… I wanted to say something about Anna.  I’ll concede that perhaps I/O and others who allege that I ‘overgamed’ Anna may have a point.  But I’m not wholly convinced.  I’ve met a number of girls in the FSU weren’t serious about a relationship with a foreigner and simply found dating foreigners to be entertaining.  (Funny, the proportion of such women decreased a lot when I stopped feeding at the ‘trough’ of MOB.)  The problem for me is that on-ground time for me in the FSU costs a lot in direct costs (vacation time, airline tickets, flats) and even more in indirect costs (lost wages) so I have to make my time efficient.  The question “would I have reached a different conclusion about Anna (and her about me) had I been able to date her on a more reasonable timetable?” isn’t really answerable without going back in time and doing a visit-one trip.
 
 

Evgenia (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11863.msg233951#msg233951) was a real sweetheart.  I met her twice and we had a really great time together.  She sent me lots of pictures and we wrote for awhile.   As I write this, I’m recalling all of the pictures she sent me in cute outfits from when she went to Sicily.  Eventually the letter writing fizzled out and she didn’t respond to one of my letters.  I didn’t follow up.  Despite our chemistry and the fun we seem to have together, I just felt like she wasn’t a good match for me.  She wasn’t quite as cute as the other girls and  was a little short for me.  She occasionally made comments in person and by phone expressing surprise that a guy like me was single.  I think my “dating market value” was higher than hers and she also thought so, but I just so thoroughly enjoyed her company that I pursued her anyway.  On some level I knew I wasn’t going to pursue it, and I think she sensed it, so she eventually stopped writing when I took no action.
 
 

Indifference is not a good starting point.  Which begs the question why did you not stop this sooner?

It’s funny that you say this, because you said something on a related theme about another girl named Polia I met.

Your phrase "one of the more interesting girls" is contradictory in my mind with your other phrase "not enough into her."   
 
 In the FSU most women satisfied my "physical attraction" criterion.  What I found elusive was a RW who was really interesting other than the novelty.
 
 Is this another way of saying there are few desirable game fish in the Silicon Valley pond?   If she were in Silicon Valley, would you be just dating her, or would you be thinking about the possibility of a LT relationship? 
 
 Or because you have made such a long trip, you want a bigger game fish, and such are present in numbers in the Novosibirsk pond?

Silicon Valley is perhaps the most vicious and lopsided dating scene you can participate in without going to Alaska.  Transitioning from dating in Silicon Valley to dating in the FSU is the most refreshing breath of fresh air a man can breathe.  Yet, I calibrate quickly.  I can’t tell you how many girls I’ve met in Russia that I really liked, who were great catches, who would have been decent wives and mothers, but yet I threw them back into the ocean for the other fishermen. 
 
Polina, who you commented on in that post, was definitely in that category.  I’ve met many others.  They were a refreshing change from the girls of Silicon Valley, yet I threw them back anyways.  Sustaining a relationship across twelve or fourteen time zones is a big hurdle.
 
I really wanted to like Evgenia, which is why I went on a second date with here in Novosibirsk and continued to write her.  Russians are usually a bit standoffish when they meet someone the first time; but Evgenia was friendly right off the bat.  I just had such a fun date with her that I wanted it to continue.  Yet, when I returned to the United States my cold-hearted analytical personality set in: I knew that there wasn’t enough there to continue.  Yet, if she had lived in Silicon Valley I would have continued to date her.  Oh, the psychological contradictions I have!
 
Anyways, it’s time for me to go get some sleep… and I promise in my next post I’ll write something about what happened with Galina in Paris.  Au revoir!

[Misha]

I’ll concede that perhaps I/O and others who allege that I ‘overgamed’ Anna may have a point.

I am not sure what I/O said, but that was my point. Playing games of the PUA or other varieties IMHO leads nowhere if the goal is to find a decent woman in Russia to marry.

[Faux Pas]

     

 
It’s funny that you say this, because you said something on a related theme about another girl named Polia I met.Silicon Valley is perhaps the most vicious and lopsided dating scene you can participate in without going to Alaska.  Transitioning from dating in Silicon Valley to dating in the FSU is the most refreshing breath of fresh air a man can breathe.  Yet, I calibrate quickly. I can’t tell you how many girls I’ve met in Russia that I really liked, who were great catches, who would have been decent wives and mothers, but yet I threw them back into the ocean for the other fishermen. 
 
Polina, who you commented on in that post, was definitely in that category.  I’ve met many others.  They were a refreshing change from the girls of Silicon Valley, yet I threw them back anyways.  Sustaining a relationship across twelve or fourteen time zones is a big hurdle.
 
I really wanted to like Evgenia, which is why I went on a second date with here in Novosibirsk and continued to write her.  Russians are usually a bit standoffish when they meet someone the first time; but Evgenia was friendly right off the bat. I just had such a fun date with her that I wanted it to continue.  Yet, when I returned to the United States my cold-hearted analytical personality set in: I knew that there wasn’t enough there to continue.  Yet, if she had lived in Silicon Valley I would have continued to date her.  Oh, the psychological contradictions I have!
 

TBB


You've always struck me as an honest, straightforward all around good guy. I think I've read all of your TRs on this and other forums. Don't take it personally but here is some honesty from me to you. You are your own worse enemy. You have dated dozens, maybe hundreds of women and made dozens of trips. From your description of them most were quality women. You date, you reject, you date, you reject.


What's the deal guy? If you are looking for the perfect woman, you'd just as well save yourself some time and stop now. She doesn't exist. The idea of the BBD (bigger better deal) is a fallacy, a mirage. Get it out of your head. IMHO, you seem to have a problem breaking that early stage dating barrier where you forget the analytical comparisons to other women and get into the lady herself. Relax guy and quit trying to find that woman you have formulated in your head. FWIW, you are trying too hard.


The search for perfection probably comes naturally to you and a tendency you find difficult to navigate around. You put too much pressure on yourself and the women you date. Seems you do not allow things to happen and progress "naturally. FWIW

[Vaughn]

FP, it could also be that TwoBit just hasn't fallen in love yet.
 
Before I can assign him the status of one who's not willing or able to pull the trigger, I've got to read more...

[Faux Pas]

Vaughn, no doubt that is the problem. From a logistical standpoint, I can think of no one who was more prepped and equipped including learning the language, to finding his match than TBB. He's been in the game, had many at bats and driven many to the fence.


At some point in these journeys the man does have to look in the mirror and question the man he finds there IMO