7 most common mistakes in dating Ukrainian women

[Shadow]

I disagree, in the end it's always about chemistry and attraction between a girl and a boy. A translator can't create chemistry between them. It is either there or it's not.

You underestimate your own powers.

[calmissile]

This has the potential to turn in to another debate and commercial about using a translator as coach. While it may be very useful for some, I always have the feeling that if you use a translator for more is he/she is supposed to do it will certainly influence your choice.
Nothing against arranged marriages, as they work as good as normal ones, but in such cases you will come home with the woman the translator finds best suited for you, not your own choice.

Not sure if I disagree with you or we are talking about two different things.  I was not thinking in terms of a coach influencing my decision as to which women to choose.  I was more thinking that a coach can translate what the lady is thinking in her culture and conveying her feelings into my language and culture.  The same in reverse.  I don't see her as an advocate for either party.  In fact I would like to know how she FEELS, not just what she says in her native language which is often misinterpreted from her spoken words.  A coach with the skills understanding both cultures can more easily express the feelings of both parties into the others language.  In addition, the coach can offer suggestions as to the correct manner that we might communicate without creating misunderstandings or hostilities.

I already had a year of very frequent misunderstandings that were not only due to language differences, but cultural differences as well.  I notice that some FSU women expect the men to learn the taboos and minefields, but they are not well prepared to understand the WM cultures.  It has to be a two way street.

I don't see the coach as a matchmaker, but rather a bridge between two people  to covey the meanings and feelings of each others communications.  A true coach would not be trying to be a matchmaker but rather a medium to exchange feelings and communications between the two parties.

She is conveying the thoughts of two people and how they feel about each other.  She is also valuable to evaluate the conversations and make suggestions as to what will be received as an insult and what is a different way to achieve the same thing with a different message.  My experience with a strictly translator resulted in the same literal translation with all the insults and crazy behavior that made little sense to me.  If the translations were followed with an explanation of what she was trying to express (in my culture and language) it would have made a lot more sense and might have dramatically changed my responses were to her.  It might have been much better received.

At any rate, I can see a big advantage to using a coach/translator for those of us that do not have the language or cultural skills to provide meaningful dialogue between cultures and languages.  In addition, I found many FSU women that are not interested in learing WM cultures and seem reluctant to want to understand how their liteally tanslated messages are received by a WM

If I had had the services of a translator/coach I would have made fewer mistakes and the outcome may have been much differently.  Needless to say, my future endeavor is likely to use the services of a translator/coach.  hopefully she will also have the skills to sort out the 20% of the psychologically damaged category as well.   

I have to admit that watching Marks video caused me to discover several mistakes I had made and now know better than to repeat them.

Just my $0.02 worth!

[Shadow]

If you have single language skills, and the woman (women) you are visiting have limited or no language skills the use of a translator is indeed something useful.

A professional translator should be fluent in both languages, and if possible be able to translate while listening, to get a fluent conversation. That is a very high standard, I am aware of that.

By fluency in both languages it is possible to translate the correct meaning of what is said, rather than a 'google translate' type of literal translation. This combined with the body language should give YOU the correct idea of feeling.

When using a coach there is a risk of the thoughts of the coach prevailing more than your own. You may have doubts about body language and words, but if your coach says it is a cultural thing you will accept this. She may have doubts about your behaviour and words, but if the coach says it is a cultural thing she will accept it.
In the end, if the coach believes that the two of you should match, he/she can influence both of you to be matching. As said this has as much potential to work out as a try without a coach, and a good coach will have experience enough to know which types of people could be compatible and integrity enough not to use the influence for financial gain only.

[Eduard]

Not sure if I disagree with you or we are talking about two different things.  I was not thinking in terms of a coach influencing my decision as to which women to choose.  I was more thinking that a coach can translate what the lady is thinking in her culture and conveying her feelings into my language and culture.  The same in reverse.  I don't see her as an advocate for either party.  In fact I would like to know how she FEELS, not just what she says in her native language which is often misinterpreted from her spoken words.  A coach with the skills understanding both cultures can more easily express the feelings of both parties into the others language.  In addition, the coach can offer suggestions as to the correct manner that we might communicate without creating misunderstandings or hostilities.

I already had a year of very frequent misunderstandings that were not only due to language differences, but cultural differences as well.  I notice that some FSU women expect the men to learn the taboos and minefields, but they are not well prepared to understand the WM cultures.  It has to be a two way street.

I don't see the coach as a matchmaker, but rather a bridge between two people  to covey the meanings and feelings of each others communications.  A true coach would not be trying to be a matchmaker but rather a medium to exchange feelings and communications between the two parties.

She is conveying the thoughts of two people and how they feel about each other.  She is also valuable to evaluate the conversations and make suggestions as to what will be received as an insult and what is a different way to achieve the same thing with a different message.  My experience with a strictly translator resulted in the same literal translation with all the insults and crazy behavior that made little sense to me.  If the translations were followed with an explanation of what she was trying to express (in my culture and language) it would have made a lot more sense and might have dramatically changed my responses were to her.  It might have been much better received.

At any rate, I can see a big advantage to using a coach/translator for those of us that do not have the language or cultural skills to provide meaningful dialogue between cultures and languages.  In addition, I found many FSU women that are not interested in learing WM cultures and seem reluctant to want to understand how their liteally tanslated messages are received by a WM

If I had had the services of a translator/coach I would have made fewer mistakes and the outcome may have been much differently.  Needless to say, my future endeavor is likely to use the services of a translator/coach.  hopefully she will also have the skills to sort out the 20% of the psychologically damaged category as well.   

I have to admit that watching Marks video caused me to discover several mistakes I had made and now know better than to repeat them.

Just my $0.02 worth!

Doug, this IS a million dollar post! Can I use this as my job descripton?    The only thing I could add to it that a coach translator can be a "he" as well as a "she" 

[calmissile]

No problem Ed.  I was not even thinking about gender, only the function.  I guess it was in my head from watching Marks video. 

[Eduard]

If you have single language skills, and the woman (women) you are visiting have limited or no language skills the use of a translator is indeed something useful.

 +1

A professional translator should be fluent in both languages, and if possible be able to translate while listening, to get a fluent conversation. That is a very high standard, I am aware of that.

By fluency in both languages it is possible to translate the correct meaning of what is said, rather than a 'google translate' type of literal translation. This combined with the body language should give YOU the correct idea of feeling.

Yes, fluency in both languages is extremely important. Although I started learning English since age 6 with my dad at home and then at age 7 I went to a specialised school with the emphasis on English language, my English was far from fluent when I first arrived to the USA.  My knowledge of English grammar and spelling was pretty good though and my first AW wife often asked me how to spell words when we were in college together. Off course I could communicate well enough from day one in the US but as they say: "The more you know, the more you realise how little you know". I can honestly say that it took me 8 to 10 years of complete immersion into American culture, speaking English 99% of the time (since I was married to an American woman) to start fully understanding and appreciating American style of humor, idioms, figure of speech, slang and culture in general. But even at that point my knowledge was quite limited compared to what it is now, after 32 years in this country. And still I learn something new every day!

When using a coach there is a risk of the thoughts of the coach prevailing more than your own. You may have doubts about body language and words, but if your coach says it is a cultural thing you will accept this. She may have doubts about your behaviour and words, but if the coach says it is a cultural thing she will accept it.
In the end, if the coach believes that the two of you should match, he/she can influence both of you to be matching. As said this has as much potential to work out as a try without a coach, and a good coach will have experience enough to know which types of people could be compatible and integrity enough not to use the influence for financial gain only.

I agree with this.

[Eduard]

just came across this post by a local Ukrainian translator on another site which demos my point about fluency very well (I'm using only a little part of the post, not sure if I'm allowed to do that? If not let me know and I'll delete it):

"...I work as a translator (English, Russian, Ukrainian), in

[/size]

Kherson, Ukraine...

...So the direct communication/intercourse between a Russian woman and a Western

man is a key factor that can enable you to understand if an introduction website

is good."

 

[mendeleyev]

Perfect example, Ed!

The meaning of words in a culture change over time. Today the first dictionary example of intercourse would be sexual because of common usage; in prior times however it could have been any kind of human communication and/or interaction.

You and I have both preached the impossibility of a person being called "fluent" when that translator or lady has not lived in the culture of the language being spoken. Language is part of a people's culture and can only be correctly understood in context.

This also underscores the correctness of Mark's caution that we hear words and phrases based on our cultural/geographical context. He is right. Were a RW to say "I wish to have complete intercourse with you" today she is probably not talking about spending the day in bed, but in deep conversation to get to know each other more completely.

It reminds me of the scene in the extraordinary spy book/movie "The Company" when the Russian girl says "I lust to know the English language." We can chuckle at the male character's reply along the lines of "I lust too" but at that point in the dialogue sex was the last thing on her mind--she had a strong desire to learn English.
                 

[BdHvA]

My guess is that some translators oversell there skills as do some clients of them. In the end unless you are going to retain said translator 24/7 the two parties better figure out there future on there own.

That is unless he is a "vulture" and he wants to a K7 in a few days of being together.

[Boethius]

impossibility of a person being called "fluent" when that translator or lady has not lived in the culture of the language being spoken

I tend to agree 99%.  But, there are always exceptions.  possum is one such exception.  His written English is fully fluent, in fact, more grammatical and richer than some native speakers, and he also knows a fair bit of cultural slang.
Fluency, particularly in the internet age, is also generational, I think. 
 

[mendeleyev]

Fluency, particularly in the internet age, is also generational, I think.

I think you are on to something although I don't believe that we are necessarily there, yet. But I cannot disagree that the internet is making our world "smaller."

[Boethius]

I was thinking more of the connection between cultural fluency and language, particularly slang, which arises on the internet.
 
For example, it is not unusual for my kids to be talking about something, using words I know, but I have no clue what they are talking about.  They may as well be talking another language.  Then, about six months to a year later, it usually enters the "mainstream". 

[Eduard]

Were a RW to say "I wish to have complete intercourse with you" today she is probably not talking about spending the day in bed, but in deep conversation to get to know each other more completely.

How do we really know what a woman means!? These two meanings don't have to be mutually exclusive! 

[ML]

I tend to agree 99%.  But, there are always exceptions.  possum is one such exception.  His written English is fully fluent, in fact, more grammatical and richer than some native speakers, and he also knows a fair bit of cultural slang.
Fluency, particularly in the internet age, is also generational, I think.

And what about the Russian gal  living in Belgium (can't remember her name).  Her knowledge of American slang seemed extraordinary.

[Boethius]

Aloe, yes, I forgot about her.  Her language is excellent as well.
 
I think she has left the forum, though.

[Manny]

Perfect example, Ed!

The meaning of words in a culture change over time. Today the first dictionary example of intercourse would be sexual because of common usage; in prior times however it could have been any kind of human communication and/or interaction.

The definition of intercourse is not primarily sexual in British English; it can be either. It is probably 50/50 with the sexual definition. It is context dependent.

Here is the Oxford dictionary link: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/intercourse

Many in the FSU learn the more correct British English over simplified American English, thus the translator quoted up-thread using 'intercourse' in that context is perfectly correct.

[ML]

Many in the FSU learn the more correct British English over simplified American English . . .

What, I have never heard this voiced before!

[Manny]

What, I have never heard this voiced before!

It stands to reason ML. England is less than 1000 miles from the FSU perimeter. It is called 'English' because it originated in England, y'know? 

Any translator or interpreter will tell you that they learn English the old way, from Latin roots. My wife for example, when she started working for Americans translating and interpreting, had to sit watching DVD's of 'Friends', 'SATC' and 'Dallas' to get a handle on American English. She had learned British English and pronunciation of a 't' as a 'd' for example flummoxed her at one time. When we first visited the US she had a hard time the first few days till she acclimatised.

We in the UK are force fed American English via TV, so we understand it without thinking. To those who learn English from Latin roots and an Oxford dictionary, American English is like learning a whole new language.

Think of it like the difference between Russian and Ukrainian languages. That is how my wife explained it.

[Muzh]

Many in the FSU learn the more correct British English over simplified American English, thus the translator quoted up-thread using 'intercourse' in that context is perfectly correct.

Absolutely. That's why they all flunk their English tests. 

(Wait... here it comes)

[Boethius]

Think of it like the difference between Russian and Ukrainian languages. That is how my wife explained it.

Unless the English is Glaswegian, I disagree.  British English and American English are still both English, albeit with minor spelling differences.  Russian and Ukrainian are separate languages, and Manny, you know that 55 year old Ukrainians who were educated in the USSR don't understand Russian.
 
 

[Shadow]

Unless the English is Glaswegian, I disagree.  British English and American English are still both English, albeit with minor spelling differences.  Russian and Ukrainian are separate languages, and Manny, you know that 55 year old Ukrainians who were educated in the USSR don't understand Russian.

Written language is quite similar, however the spoken language has a lot of difference, and Russians who have heard the British variant usually do have a lot of trouble witn the American pronounciation and slang.

Are the Ukrainians unable to read Russian, or unable to understand the spoken language ?

[ML]

Written language is quite similar, however the spoken language has a lot of difference, and Russians who have heard the British variant usually do have a lot of trouble witn the American pronounciation and slang.

On a Travel Discussion Website:

If I travel to country X, will someone be able to understand English?

Many respondents: Yes, you will find English speakers in almost all countries of the world.

Particular respondent:  I have traveled to 87 countries and encountered only one place where I couldn't understand the people's spoken English.

Where was that?

England.

[Boethius]

Shadow, I am a native English speaker.  Much of the television programming I grew up with came from the U.S. (US stations broadcasting in Canada), and there are parts of the US that, if I visit, no one will know I am a foreigner.  In Florida, they assumed I was a Yankee. 
 
As a Canadian, I also grew up on a lot of British programmes.  The best were stolen and reformatted by Americans, usually in an inferior manner (Robin's Nest vs Three's Company).  My favourites were later, though - Drop the Dead Donkey, Absolutely Fabulous, The Life and Loves of a She Devil, Prime Suspect and Cracker.  I also use British spellings, as Canadians always have (Empire and Commonwealth, etc.).
 
An American visiting the UK will have no problem being understood in everyday speech, and vice versa.

[Boethius]

On a Travel Discussion Website:

If I travel to country X, will someone be able to understand English?

Many respondents: Yes, you will find English speakers in almost all countries of the world.

Particular respondent:  I have traveled to 87 countries and encountered only one place where I couldn't understand the people's spoken English.

Where was that?

England.

My teen aged son was on a school trip to the UK.  He was walking down a street in London with a couple of friends when they were approached by a slightly drunk woman asking for money.  The first thing she asked was "Do you speak English?"  When they answered affirmatively, she said "Well, thank God someone in Britain does."

[Ade]

My teen aged son was on a school trip to the UK.  He was walking down a street in London with a couple of friends when they were approached by a slightly drunk woman asking for money.  The first thing she asked was "Do you speak English?"  When they answered affirmatively, she said "Well, thank God someone in Britain does."

I'm a native and I can't understand some British accents. Seriously, some of them sound like they are gargling haggis. London can have more foreigners on the streets than Brits though especially in the touristy bits.