Her child

[Son of Clyde]

On Monday I will be meeting my fiance in Kiev and she will be bringing her child.

Having never had children I know it will be an adjustment once they arrive here.

My goal is not to replace the child's father but to care for, protect and support the child as long as they are living with me. Maybe even once they leave my home I still need to help financially when they need it. I don't care if the child resents me at first it will still be my responsibility to provide for their support.

My question is, how much support is the father required to give? With this being the Ukraine I have a feeling once he signs for the child he will cease to provide any support. Is this true?

 

[jb]

Clyde,

I admire your sense of responsibility.

How old is the child?  Generally speaking, the younger the better, because you will become the only father figure the kid is likely to ever know.  You will become a real dad in every sense of the word.

Good luck with winning over the heart of the little person.  Ideally you might get a maybe 10 year old boy to be your buddy.  Done in the right way, this could be one of the greatest blessings of your life.

As for the biological father supporting the kid after you marry, I'd be the most surprised man in Texas if you ever saw  a penny's worth of support from this man.  He will probably write the kid off like a bad debt and never look back.

[Bruno]

[line]
My goal is not to replace the child's father but to care for, protect and support the child as long as they are living with me. Maybe even once they leave my home I still need to help financially when they need it. I don't care if the child resents me at first it will still be my responsibility to provide for their support.

My question is, how much support is the father required to give? With this being the Ukraine I have a feeling once he signs for the child he will cease to provide any support. Is this true?

[line]
Finaly, someone who try to see all before it is too late... someone who don't see marriage only on the side of dating but like a long new life...

The biologic father go stop all kind of support when you will be married... you will be the new suppport...

Take care that he sign the document who allow the child to go outside Ukraine before you will be married... he will sign if he understand that he can spare money...

Like a fool, i have not take care of this for my first marriage...  and he have ask after the marriage a big amount of money for allow the child to quit russia... and my ex have stay in Russia with the child until all was in order...

A other problem who can appear, it is for the adoption... he have always refuse that i adopt Anastassia... These adoption was needed for me because the child stay Russian to the majority and if the mother go dead before his majority, the biological father can ask the child back because the family link between you and the child have dissappear...

The best, is that he sign a document where he remonce to his father right and where the mother don't ask anymore a support before the marriage... so only the mother need to give the authorisation for the child go outside russia and for the adoption... beware, the adoption procedure is very complex and long : around 3 year... russian justice is very slow...

About replace the child father, you have right... don't try to replace him, try to be better... the only regret of my previous marriage is the child... Anastasia was a light in my life... and it was very difficult to not see her anymore... i have take care of her during 5 year like my own child but because i was not the biologic father and i have not adopt her, i have no right to see her...

I don't know the law in US, but in Belgium, child reach the majority at 18 year old but parent have a financial responsability to 25 year old... and children have financial responsability to parents when they are retired ( legal age : 65 year old )....

[jb]

Clyde, Bruno, et al,,,

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not giving legal advice here regarding adoption, but I looked into it after we married.  

If you decide to adopt a step child, (you have that right in the USA, mother agreeing, and biological father terminating parental rights).  This action would take place in an American Family Law Court, not in the Ukraine justice system.  A good family law advocate could get this done in a matter of days, not years.

Of course, I'm speaking of Texas State Courts, you should visit with a lawyer in your State to answer questions about how it's done in your area.  But I think the document the father signed allowing the kid to leave Ukraine would be viewed in any court here as termination of the father's parential rights.

In other words, it will probably be easier than you think.  And there is an added bebefit to adopting, the kid gets to be an instant American citizen..  Should anything happen to you, the kid can look after his mom in her legalization processs.  It would be very difficult for the BCIS to send home the foreign born mother of a US citizen.

Just a thought.

[Bruno]

JB, you forget a little detail... of course all the adoption procedure is possible in Belgium too, like in US... but these adoption will not be legal in Russia...

Since, your russian wife visit her family each year and her children visit opa and oma... it is a risk that the biological father claim his right when she is in russia... and take back the child.

The usual document sign by the biological father is only for allow the child go outside russia, he don't remouce to his father right...

Some info :

Russia loves its' children and accordingly has implemented laws, and amendments along the way, which place the interests of the children first.

Children are available for adoption by foreigners husband for one of three reasons: the natural father deceased, natural father have given written relinquishment of their rights, or court decision depriving parental rights. In most cases parental rights are deprived if he cannot afford to care for their children.

Both parents must travel to the Russian Federation and be present at the court hearing to complete the adoption. One spouse may return home after the court hearing.

Administratif delay : 6 month since all documents are ready

[jb]

Bruno,

One of my co-workers and his wife just adpoted a Russian child, an little infant baby girl, it took about $10,000 USD and less than two weeks to do the deal in Russia.

Adopting a step-child in the USA is a whole different kettle of fish. And a child, adopted under American law, would travel to and from under a Blue American passport.  I doubt the Russians would ever say a single word about it going in  and out from the airport, to do so would risk serious International ramifications.  I don't think the Russians would be that stupid.

[anzo]

I married my former wife in '93. She came solo. Due to her family and other issues, it took 2 years for her daughter to arrive. She was 7 at the time. I remember the scared little girl look up at me with those dark Eurasian eyes and when I greeted her and asked her her name, she replied in a tiny voice. I fell in love immediately. And she was calling me "Papa" on the way home (I fixed that).  She is 18 now. Though I've been divorced from her gorgeous sexy awful rotten mother for 5 years, Marianna is still my little pumpkin, and she's always considered me to be dad. Actually, the marriage lasted longer than it would have because she was so attatched to me and my family. Having a child around, at least a younger one, was really nice because it provided the opportunity to "tri-angulate". By that I mean there was less pressure of a day to day nature on mom and I because of the little girl. Mom hates me today? I think I'll take pumpkin to the zoo. Pumpkin is mad at me? Let's get a babysitter and go out tonight. They both hate me? RUN. I would also add that I had never seen such a self confident and expressive kid at 7-be prepared for that in all of it's meanings.

Anzo

[Bruno]

[line]
One of my co-workers and his wife just adpoted a Russian child, an little infant baby girl, it took about $10,000 USD and less than two weeks to do the deal in Russia.
[line]
They have adopted a orphan... not a child who have legal parents... so child are the "propriety of state"... this is not the good example


[line]


Adopting a step-child in the USA is a whole different kettle of fish. And a child, adopted under American law, would travel to and from under a Blue American passport. I doubt the Russians would ever say a single word about it going in and out from the airport, to do so would risk serious International ramifications. I don't think the Russians would be that stupid.


[line]


Do you think that America Gouverment will be stupid enought for make International problem for only one child... if the child is born russian, he will be russian to the end of life... he will have the two nationality... you go see the difference when you go ask a visa for russia... you will not be in the same row at ambassy that you wife and children...

So problem with children ( parental abduction ) appear each day in a lot of country... same with US :

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/abduction_580.html

http://ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/ojjdp_report_ip_kidnapping/section1.html

But the problem is not here... why take a risk when all can be ready before... ASK TO THE NATURAL FATHER TO SIGN A REAL DOCUMENT CERTIFY BY NOTARIS WHERE HE REMOUCE TO HIS FATHER RIGHT. certify these document at the foreign office and translate it, certify the translation.... and all will be right

[jb]

Bruno,

You may be qualified to speak about Belgium (?) law, you even speak of 5 bad years married to a RW, I'll give you half credit for that failure.  I wish you had spent some time learning about Russian culture in the process
 
But I don't think you know anything about American Family Law Court, or the serious nature any government has of running amuck with a "Blue Passport", Americans have been known to bomb people back to the stone age over lesser greivances.

Yet you seem determined to argue... OK, I give up.  Happy now~?

[Bruno]

JB,

Belgium (?) : little country in Europa... host from European gouverment and Administration, host for OTAN commandment center, next place of visit of your president in some days...

I have speak of five years married, they have become bad after the divorce because it is 5 year loose... and i have learn a lot during the process and same now, i have a lot of russian friend living in Belgium...

Of course, i know nothing about US personaly but i can use my computer and i read a lot of information... and i think that i can trust official information from US gov site !!!

And i know about the power method of America... they are very good for break all and not asume her responsability after... i have see some of your good guys loose the life in Somalia because some crazy politian from US have wish show is power...

And America don't rule the world, several country have the courage to say NO... for several country, it is not a advantage to have a "Blue Passport"... you are a potential victim with so passport... and send people back to the stone age was not always lucky : vietman, irak, ...

Usually, American don't try to negociate, they use the strong power but sometime, be carefull for the result... slowly, in the world, you have more people who hate American that people who love America... and usualy, they use power on country without a great power... i don't see America use his power in Russia... this can lead to a hollocaust...

US is a great nation but sometime they are like children... inpulsive

And i have nothing against american but several from the rest of world think like this... America is the great democrasy who have give 68 million $ for help the new ukrainian president to win election... you will not be welcome in all place from Ukraine... maybe next time you go in FSU or Belgium, take your cow-boy colt for show your power....

Sorry, i forget, ... you will not argue... strange on a "discussion" forum !!!!

[BC]

<<--- heads for shelter..

[jb]

Bruno,

Of course, i know nothing about US personaly

I guess we all knew that.  The European ego at work, it was only a matter of time before it came out.

Personally I feel very sorry for you, you have just lost the respect of about 3/4 of the board,(or more).  Now I doubt anyone, or few, will listen to you, or take you seriously.

Bad mouthing the USA, on a basically American board, is not a good way to win friends and influence people around here.

Maybe you should write that down so you'll remember it next time.

[Vaughn]

Sure got damn quiet around here!

Son of Clyde, I wish you all the best for Monday. I happen to have two adopted American daughters and one Russian stepdaughter, all teenagers - lots of estrogen in THIS household! But let me affirm, the adoption of a child is an indescribable blessing, and your positive attitude has you on the right track. Contrary to what some believe, I happen feel that the presence of an FSU child can ease the lady's transition into our society - at least that's our experience. Look past any resentment and shower that child with love and respect, and that child will respond in due time. A little late for this advice, but here's hoping you've recently checked in with your local school system!

Best wishes,  Vaughn

[Admin]

Of course, i know nothing about US personaly

I guess we all knew that.  The European ego at work, it was only a matter of time before it came out.

Personally I feel very sorry for you, you have just lost the respect of about 3/4 of the board,(or more).  Now I doubt anyone, or few, will listen to you, or take you seriously.

Bad mouthing the USA, on a basically American board, is not a good way to win friends and influence people around here.

Maybe you should write that down so you'll remember it next time.[/quote]

Actually, much of Bruno's position comes directly from the international adoption regulations from the Hague Convention. Reference the website at http://www.webcom.com/~kmc/adoption/law/un/un-ica.html

Ukraine and Russian (and USA) are signatory to the Hague Convention.

I *think* the majority of the argument is moot at this stage - as the US Embassies in both Russia and Ukraine are now requiring US sponsors to secure legal documentation from the father of a child abrogating paternal rights prior to granting a visa to the mother. This has not always been the case - only a few short years back, Warsaw (when it processed applicants from Ukraine) often did NOT require the child's father to release all paternal rights - but that has definitely changed.

What it means is that - with natural paternal rights having been released, the mother is the sole decision-maker, and she alone has the right to determine if she wishes to allow her child to be adopted by her new US husband.

If she *does* agree, then indeed, the adopted child becomes a US citizen - travels on a US passport - and is no longer tied to any real risk of the natural father re-asserting paternal rights.

Bruno does the board readership a great service by adding an important perspective lacking in many of us - simply because he comes from a different culture and country. He also happens to be extraordinarily generous with his time and information.

You too, jb, offer the readership a great service. Your edges are a bit sharp at times, but I believe most see that and look beyond it to the vast amount of information and experience you so willingly share.

In sum, you BOTH are valued and valuable contributors to the board - and both have managed to cross swords over an issue that is probably not terribly important in the overall scheme of things.

Just my take on things. FWIW

- Dan

[jb]

Dan,

I've very carefully reviewed every one of my posts in this thread, and I fail to see where I crossed the line of good taste, common courtesy, or that of giving bad information.  Right up to that point where Bruno took his cheap shot at America.  That sort of comment I generally won't tolerate very well. Certainly BC thought there might be gunfire as a result of Bruno's post.  And yet, I thought my response was very tempered.  


Regarding the topic of the thread, you wrote:

What it means is that - with natural paternal rights having been released, the mother is the sole decision-maker, and she alone has the right to determine if she wishes to allow her child to be adopted by her new US husband.

This is basically a rewording of my previous statement:

If you decide to adopt a step child, (you have that right in the USA, mother agreeing, and biological father terminating parental rights)<snip> etc.,.

Where did your statement significantly differ from mine?  Bruno was the one who wanted to argue some obscure non-existant International point of law, stating that there is, or may be, some higher court than that which might grant a decree of adoption, other than a State's Family Law Court. Trust me on this, if I adopt a kid and assume the responsibility for his or her upbringing and education, then that kid is mine,,,period.  There would have been a judge who legally gave me full rights as a parent over said child... Done deal.  EOS ~!  Bruno's point was BS, and I told him so, as sweetly as I could muster

Your edges are a bit sharp at times,

For that I offer no excuse.  Where I come from, men are expected to speak openly and honestly with each other.  It's how real men talk to each other, in person we even use lots of four letter words to punctuate and to better make our point.  We avoid misunderstandings by use of full candor, and rarely have to resort to politically correct terms when discussing sensitive subjects.  In other words, we are prone to call a spade, a spade.  It just makes life easier if people understand each other from the get go.  Usually when we disagree it's;  "Fu*k you, strong letter to follow~!", I tone it down a lot on boards such as these.

If it is your wish that questions and comments not be honestly, and straight forwardly dealt with, please let me know.  I'm as capable of lieing through my teeth as the next guy.

[Admin]

If it is your wish that questions and comments not be honestly, and straight forwardly dealt with, please let me know.  I'm as capable of lieing through my teeth as the next guy.

Nope - not my wish at all. I am sorry you took my comments in that way. Please be assured I want honest, open and candid discourse. I want respectful and measured responses that do not attack others. That is all. I hope it isn't too much to ask.

One of the things I am learning about running the board, is how easily my comments can be misinterpreted, or taken as stronger than I ever intended.

My objective in the previous post was to try to strike a chord of conciliation and appreciation (mine) of both posters - you (jb) and Bruno. If I missed the target, please accept my apology.

It honestly pains me when I see two very valuable contributors take a turn to 'go' at one another. I'd like to find ways to ameliorate the disharmony, but find it sometimes awkward or clumsy to be effective.

I'll try to do better.

- Dan

[jb]

Dan,

No apology necessary. It's your board, run it the way you want to.  If I get out of line, slap me down.

However, when I see someone riding a high horse without the  proper uniform, I'm apt to say so.

[BC]

Certainly BC thought there might be gunfire as a result of Bruno's post.  And yet, I thought my response was very tempered.

Quite so.. Even though I'm sure jb and Bruno might have even enjoyed sparring (they both seem man enough not to take it too far) it was about politics.. certainly way off topic for this thread or even section of the board.

[Photo Guy]

Bruno's extreme criticism of America really bothers me,
and jb needs to learn that candor without
an abrasive macho swagger is possible.
Aside from that, they often produce some valuable insights.  -doug L.

[Bruno]

My post was a reply for Clyde... i have only wish that it take care about everylittle detail... and my view was not European but from the Russian side... i have know these problem with child and with adoption...

The document make by the natural father was only a authorisation for the child live abroad and not a "terminating parental right"

And you can ask to all parent who have adopt russian child without the "terminating parental right" from the natural father, it is need to go in Russia to the law court... and it is logical... imagine a reverse situation... a RM ( russian man ) married with a AW who wish adopt a AC ( american child ) ... he need to obtain the law decision in USA...

I have only wish explain a little detail who can lead at a big problem, certainly when we speak about children.

[line]
I guess we all knew that. The European ego at work, it was only a matter of time before it came out.

Personally I feel very sorry for you, you have just lost the respect of about 3/4 of the board,(or more). Now I doubt anyone, or few, will listen to you, or take you seriously.

Bad mouthing the USA, on a basically American board, is not a good way to win friends and influence people around here.
Maybe you should write that down so you'll remember it next time.
[line]


My reactions was due to :"Americans have been known to bomb people back to the stone age over lesser greivances"

And yes, it is true... but it is better to say "American Gouverment" and not "American" , and not all American citizen agree with what make his gouverment...

And it will be the same about my post... some go agree and other not... and i am not bad mouthing USA, it is only fact... you are enough individualist and don't know the rest of world... yes, i don't live in USA but i have stay several time in my life, i have work with American in 3 war ( Golf, Somalie, and Yougoslavie )... i have speak with your guys...

And the rest of my info are from internet, book, tv ( i have too CNN ).... the world try to save the planet but USA don't sign the Kyoto traity,... the world with judge the big war criminal but they don't reconize the international tribunal from La Haye... Some of my contact have explain the situation in Ukraine during the election... i am for the new President ( he is pro european ) but i don't agree when one president use money from other other country to win election, we name this corruption.

I think that America have know the same problem when china have will sponsor some politic man in USA...

When i write, it is not only my meaning... but the meaning of several people in the rest of world... your image in the world become bad and i don't like this because the basis of US is liberty and freedom ... and they try to make the world more peacefull...

Only about the power method, i don't agree... i am enough strong from nature but i have never try to impose my point of view by my power of money ( corruption )... i negociate, argue, for find the best solution for the two side...

JB, with "Yet you seem determined to argue... OK, I give up. Happy now"... you have a children reaction... it is the same that if you have say : "i don't know what to say but i stay on my position"... i hope that when you speak about some personal problem with you wife, you react not the same... this don't help to resolve the problem...

Dan, thank for the link ... i have not know this... i have search info on russian and american site because Clyde was American... and i have try to use info from gouverment ( US and RU )... parental adbuction is not a usual problem but when it appear, it is not easy to resolve it and take a long time... some year of juridical procedure is nothing for us but a lot in the life of children... imagine a child from 6 year in a procedure of 3 year... when he come back in US, he cannot read and write in English, only Russian...

In my case, i have more chance... when Anastasia have stay in Russia with father, she was 8 year old and she cannot read and write russian ( only Dutch )... after 6 month, the father have give up and send her back in Belgium... and 6 other month, it was the begin of my divorce... my ex wife have never forgive me these problem... for her i was responsible because i am the man and i have not think about all... i have know a lot of problem in my first marriage because i have not take care about detail but these detail lead to nightware... i wish only that other people don't know what i have know... but the best method is to be ready before...

[Bruce]

Bruno - #1, shut off CNN and turn on Fox News.  If you depend on CNN for what is happening in the USA you will not know much about the average American or much of anything else.

             #2, I try my best not to criticize Europe (except for France) because I do not live there, was not born there etc.  I think in the same vein it is best for you not to criticize the USA despite the fact that you have been here.  Remember, the USA is a widely diverse country.  To generalize about the USA almost always is a big mistake.

              #3, Russia is also a widely diverse country like the USA, in many ways perhaps more so.  On one of my trips to Russia I went to Siberia, Moscow and St. Petersburg, with a few places in-between over the course of an albeit 18 day period.  However, the people I stayed with / interacted with I had known over the course of a number of years and we freely exchanged our opinions.  It was during the beginning of the Iraq liberation.  Believe me, the opinions in Russia were by any means not monolithic.  The European Russians tended to be more like the majority of the rest of Europe - with the belief that it was a huge mistake (it seems about 50% of the USA population thinks the same by the way  - but primarily because of costs, not values).  The Siberian Russians were overwhelmingly supportive.  

             #4, I will try to get the thread back on course and stay away from politics, which is why I edited it.  I tip my hat off to any man who has the strength, character  and conviction to raise another man's child.  Son of Clyde - best of luck.  Patience, understanding and character usually goes a long way.

   

[Bruno]

Bruce, i agree fully with you... but again a little detail ( i keep it for the end of post )...

#1, sorry, i have not Fox news but i have other channel, not only CNN.... 

#2, I don't criticize US... every country have her quality and lack... my critic was about the use of power... i am against it and US are not the only one... Russia use it in Tchechenie, Belgium have use it in Congo before ( in the colonial period, we was really jerk and pig ), France have use it in Algerie, ... and the list is long...

#3, For Iraq, i was there during the first war... when with American, we have free and protect a other islamic country ( Koweit )... what have happen now is not bad in my eyes but the reason was false ( mass destruction weapons )...

Now, about the detail ... "Islamic world"... Islam is a religion... Islam people are not all terrorist... some extremiste use the Islam for excuse of murder... like KKK in US use the name of God, ... Adolf Hiltler have make the same : "God with us"... Please, don't mix politic and religion... it is a sort of racisme, segregation...

About Muslim in Europa, it is not a problem until they make a good integration... and don't forget to citizen from US are a mix from colon ( Europa ) and slave ( Africa )... the real American are the indian... migration have always exist. Before the "problem" with the Muslim, we have say the same for the Juif ( judaisme )...

I have not problem with any country, i have no problem with any religion, ... i have only problem with extremiste who will use the power for force his meaning... from where they are...

Now, i other people don't agree with my point of view, it is not a problem because it is my point of view and i am ready to listen other people... but i don't accept "terrorist attack"  on my post... i reply for defend myself... he attack in the name of US, i reply against US... it self have not know where was Belgium... it remember a other forum when someone have ask if Italy was in Europa ( Dan have give the reply )... Belgium have the size of Moscow in population, we are obligate to be open to the world for survive and this allow us to know more culture and country... and to be more open minded... but in intern, we have our own lack, a sleeping fight between the two part of country ( Ducth / French )... i go accept critic on my country when they are founded without problem...

I hope that these post go stop these polemic... i someone other will speak with me about this, use the PM system, and i go reply... but now, we are far from the main thema "children"... and i think it is time to give more reply of comment to the question of Clyde...  
            

[Bruce]

Bruno - I edited my post above to leave out the most political and inflammatory of remarks.  I disagree with you and I'll leave it at that.  I also believe most American men will disagree with you as well.  So, I suggest it is fairly pointless for both of us to write political views on this board.  We will not educate each other and will only create hostile feelings.  It is better to look for the similarities and stay away from the differences.  We all hold the opinion that Western men and FSU women are a great combination - so it is best to stick to that!

[Vaughn]

Bruno wrote: "i hope that when you speak about some personal problem with you wife, you react not the same... "

Ouch. Bruno, as much as I respect the opinions and experiences of you and jb, that little comment has no place on this board. Although I'm apt to fully support America's response to overseas injustice and terrorism, I duck and hide when political argument takes over these sites, that's not why I'm here - but fire away if everyone must. I do very firmly draw the line when someone brings another's wife into it, however remotely.

Vaughn

[Photo Guy]

Bruno,
Mis-use of power?

When America bombed Japan back to the stone age
it was a good thing.  WWII

When America bombed the Nazis back to the stone age,
it was a good thing.  WWII

When America bombed the Taliban in Afghanistan
back to the stone age, it was a good thing.

When America bombed Iraq back to the 20th century,
it was a good thing.

The concept for all of these wars is 'liberation', as Rice recently explained to the people of France.

CNN doesn't cover the good effects of these wars, like
women being able to work in Afghanistan, and the
effects of liberation in general. Iraq is much better off
now than they were before with a leader who murdered
minorities and other atrocities.
      -doug, reluctantly talking politics