The dance is coming to an end...

[Boethius]

I only think I do.  Women....sheesh.  Why can't they be like fish.

My husband is an expert fisherman.  He'd say not all fish are the same either. 

[mendeleyev]

Hypothetical interview with WM returning from Ukraine...

Us: So how was your trip?

Him: Great! We met and she was even more beautiful in person! I was so happy to enter my retirement years with a beautiful young lady. I think that she'll bond well with my grand kids as they have so much in common and graduated just a year apart.


Us: So you liked each other. What kind of things made the bond special for the two of you?

Him: She loved the engagement ring I brought (just in case) and she had never stayed in a Hyatt Regency before with 24 hour room service. Her friends had heard of engagement rings in the West but had never seen one before and they were all impressed.


Us: So you asked her to marry on the first trip?

Him: Pal, I don't waste time. I saw, I wanted, I'm taking.


Us: Did you get to meet her family?

Him: Naw, her father is in prison for murder and he Mum is an alcoholic and sleeps with neighborhood guys all the time so it wasn't possible to meet. I met her sister who works in the massage industry. Sis looked a little rough around the edges and kept hinting to me about her hourly rate but I'm so in love with this girl that her background and environment doesn't matter.


Us: How about her friends?

Him: At that age all her friends did was giggle when glancing my way. There was one guy, kinda rough looking and he was sort of a driver. He seemed to get upset when I tried to kiss her, but hey, she is my girl and we're engaged!


Us: So did you have a translator?

Him: That engagement ring was all the translator we needed. Once she saw those sparkling diamonds, we understood each other perfectly!


Us: So...how did you talk and discuss issues?

Him: We used the finger pointing method.


Us: ...okay, what is the finger pointing method?

Him: She'd point at something she wanted, then I'd pay for it. It was our own little secret language and one glance at my credit card statement is proof that it worked perfectly.


Us: Apparently it worked very well. So did you buy things just for her, or also for family?

Him: Except for the boots, just for her.


Us: The boots...?

Him: The sorta driver, her friend who took us places. She wanted me to buy a $500 pair of boots for him but at that time I put my foot down (pun intended) and drew a red line.


Us: A red line. Familiar, We've heard about those recently.

Him: Yep, I cut him off at a $250 pair and not a penny more. And the watch. He felt better about the downgrade in boots when I allowed the $200 watch. I snuck in a quick kiss while he was busy putting on the boots! Booty time! (pun really, really intended).


Us: So what does this girl do for a living?

Him: Oh, she is a manager but trained in college as an engineer.


Us: What does she manage?

Him: Well right now she is starting her own cleaning business. The kinda driver guy is her first client--she cleans his apartment every day. I gave her $500 as start-up capital to help get started.


Us: When is she scheduled to arrive here?

Him: We didn't quite come to terms on that. She wants me to move to Ukraine--said it would be closer to her Dad's prison. Plus she hates the idea of giving up her first cleaning service client, the kinda driver guy.


Us: You keep calling him a "kinda driver" so what's up with that?

Him: His car has a fuel line leak and so we weren't able to go many places. It is a pretty bad leak cause I was giving him gas money twice a day.


Us: So how often do you communicate now that you're back home?

Him: We're having to limit our communication to 2-3 times weekly because she doesn't have Internet at home and the only chance to Skype is when she uses the kinda driver guys home connection. He uses the Internet in his business so she can use his computer only when it is available.


Us: Odd, what kind of computer business does the kinda driver dude have?

Him: He is a driver. (pun really, really, really intended)

[ML]

Jim, I told you my story in strict confidence.

I didn't mean for you to publish it here!!!

[Boethius]

Mendy, in the families of almost all my mother's cousins, someone had been in prison.  Among the words of discouragement I heard from strangers to not marry, was that my husband did not come from a "good Soviet family". 

I met individuals whose parents were both alcoholics, yet they were normal.  I met many individuals from "good Soviet families" who, after meeting, you'd feel the need for a shower. 

Your example could work in a village, where everyone knows every family, and knows familial foibles over generations.  But I wouldn't put too much stock into who a family is, or who a person's friends are, in assessing a mate.
 
 

[mendeleyev]

Mendy, almost in each of my mother's cousin's families, someone had been in prison.

First Bo, that was written tongue in cheek although containing lots of truth.

Second, I'm guessing that as a good parent if one of your kids was dating someone in a situation like I described, you'd at least set up and take notice and perhaps monitor things a little more attentively.

Third, I kept the storyline ages of the girl and her parents young for several reasons, one was to keep "father" out of an undeserved Soviet prison sentence.

 

[Boethius]

There are still undeserved sentences in Ukraine, though now, not for political purposes.

I think I would base my judgment on the girl.  But I would never suggest anyone marry a person with whom he/she does not share a common language.
 
 
 

[mendeleyev]

Jim, I told you my story in strict confidence.

I didn't mean for you to publish it here!!!

ML, sorry about revealing your trip details but it was in the "greater need" of the online community as a lesson.

However as much as possible I tried to hide your identity by changing your initials from ML to Him.   

[CanadaMan]

Seven and a half years after the wedding.

Waiting until after the seven year itch period were ya'?   

[Fishingguy]

noooo wonder ML is so wise and funny. Thanks for taking one for all of us. 

I don't know how to thank you. Maybe a Mexican Rolex. 

[Fishingguy]

okay still washing that pie off my face...

No, I guess I don't understand a woman's mentality at all.

[die_cast]

I guess that you introduced your husband to your family and friends at the wedding.

My parents met my now ex-husband two days before our wedding and they didn't see his pics and didn't talk to him before that. 

[die_cast]

As Shadow says, no need to introduce him around if there is no interest and no serious connection. However, I don't think that you would deny that there is a compression of time in long distance international relationships.

Unfortunately it seems that on average the most trips taken by a typical WM is one or two. Three or more seems ahead of the average. In my dealings with most Russian families, and there are exceptions of course, but most ladies and most families want to have some contact with the man their daughter is courting--even locally. It is the compression of time that is a factor here and not locally.

FACT: No scammer wants you to meet her family and friends.

FACT: In local dating, most couples do just what I outlined, they just do it at a more leisurely pace. Again, compression of time is an important factor here.

Were we to spend a typical day at a ЗАГС in Russia or a РАГС in Ukraine we'd have a hard time sorting thru the number of couples where this was a first time meeting of most family members and close friends.

I'd argue, and it is just common sense, that most families have an even greater interest in meeting someone who plans to take their daughter far away to another country and most of them wouldn't want to wait for that meeting until the day of the wedding. Most close friends would be the same.

Again, I agree diecast that there is no need to trot around a guy in whom you have no interest.

May I remind our readers that it wasn't that long ago that a popular tradition in Ukraine, and some families still do it, was to tie the couples arms together with wedding towels and parade them from house to house and from relative to relative once the young man had approached the parents with the news that he wished to marry their daughter.

Fact: I'm not going to introduce a man to my family and friends just to show him that I'm not a scammer. That man today is here and tomorrow he can be anywhere, even meeting another FSUW in another city or country, but my family and friends stay with me forever and I care about them.

Even if there is serious connection at our first meeting. If he is not going to take another trip to meet my family before engagement - it's his loss. Only one trip and meeting is not enough for international marriage anyway, imho.
Of course, many families would want to have contacts with any friends and boyfriends of their daughters, as our parents are usually very invasive when it comes to their kids personal life. 
Yes, most families are interested in meeting with the person who is taking their daughter to another country, but... we are talking about first meeting when WM and FSUW need to spend time together not with friends and parents to learn more about each other. Another thing is how old and independent "the daughter": if she is younger than 26-30 y.o. and still lives with her parents - probably her parents would insist on meeting with WM as early as possible. But what about 30-60 y.o. women who already live by their own, may be have kids, or even live in different cities, far away from their parents?

[mendeleyev]

diecast, we're all different and if that works for you then great! But maybe it didn't work as well as you'd hoped.

My parents met my now ex-husband two days before our wedding and they didn't see his pics and didn't talk to him before that.

Rasputin is a success story as his wife chose the same path and it has worked well for them.

However one must take into account that he had an immense advantage as he speaks the language fluently, understands the FSU, and those are things that most members don't have.

[mendeleyev]

Fact: I'm not going to introduce a man to my family and friends just to show him that I'm not a scammer. That man today is here and tomorrow he can be anywhere, even meeting another FSUW in another city or country, but my family and friends stay with me forever and I care about them.

Even if there is serious connection at our first meeting. If he is not going to take another trip to meet my family before engagement - it's his loss. Only one trip and meeting is not enough for international marriage anyway, imho.

You are I are in complete agreement on everything you wrote here.

I wouldn't want you to "prove" that you weren't a scammer and did not write as such. However the truth remains that one of the quickest ways to get rid of a scammer before traveling is to announce that you're arriving soon and looking forward to meeting her family and friends.

My contention is that most guys make a proposal on the first or second trip so they should get to know the lay of the land because even with couples we know in the USA, often the guy never returns once married. At best, she travels home to visit.

Again, we agree that it shouldn't be that way.

[die_cast]

diecast, we're all different and if that works for you then great! But maybe it didn't work as well as you'd hoped.

In my case, my parents did like my now ex-husband. 
One my friend is married to man who her mother doesn't like a lot. I don't like him too. So what? She is still married and happy with him, even she has problems with her mother because of it. That was her choice she made 8 years ago and this is her life, why we can bother them with our opinions if it works for her?

[mendeleyev]

When daughter #3 married last year we were both hesitant at first. We gave our advice because our young adult daughter asked. I was happy that she wanted our perspective. My wife still has issues at times with it but we wanted her to be happy.

Funny thing is that five years ago when daughter #1 married it was me who was more hesitant and Mrs. M gave me wise counsel.

Oh, back to daughter #3: guess who now works for me on the Mendeleyev Journal?  My son in law, Viktor.   

[die_cast]

4 years back, I did not have internet (or even a telephone) at this house where I am spending most of my time now and I did not regularly go to an office.  There was no mobile phone signal either.   

I feel sorry for you, it's hard to survive in wild forest I heard.

P.S. I have my personal pc and internet at home since 2003.

[die_cast]

When daughter #3 married last year we were both hesitant at first. We gave our advice because our young adult daughter asked. I was happy that she wanted our perspective. My wife still has issues at times with it but we wanted her to be happy.

Funny thing is that five years ago when daughter #1 married it was me who was more hesitant and Mrs. M gave me wise counsel.

Oh, back to daughter #3: guess who now works for me on the Mendeleyev Journal?  My son in law, Viktor.   

Unfortunatelly, not all our parents are so wise as you. Some of them "костьми лягут", but would not let their daughters to make their own choice and sometimes will never accept it.

[Slumba]

Mendy, your story is hilarious! 

[lonedrake]

 My opinion is that the 2nd trip is a better......more normal...time to meet the parents.

[Daveman]

My opinion is that the 2nd trip is a better......more normal...time to meet the parents.

Or the third, or whenever everyone is comfortable.  Unless one believes in marrying after one visit, the primary goal of a first visit is simply to get to know each other enough to understand together whether there is enough attraction, compatibility, chemistry, interest, etc. to plan a second.  Anything above or beyond that creates unnecessary, and potentially counterproductive, pressure.


 

[2tallbill]

Or the third, or whenever everyone is comfortable.  Unless one believes in marrying after one visit, the primary goal of a first visit is simply to get to know each other enough to understand together whether there is enough attraction, compatibility, chemistry, interest, etc. to plan a second.  Anything above or beyond that creates unnecessary, and potentially counterproductive, pressure.

I agree if the trip is for one week or ten days.


If the trip is substantially longer and things are progressing nicely then
bringing friends and family into the mix makes sense.


Udachi !


Bill

[JayH]

When daughter #3 married last year we were both hesitant at first. We gave our advice because our young adult daughter asked. I was happy that she wanted our perspective. My wife still has issues at times with it but we wanted her to be happy.

Funny thing is that five years ago when daughter #1 married it was me who was more hesitant and Mrs. M gave me wise counsel.

Oh, back to daughter #3: guess who now works for me on the Mendeleyev Journal?  My son in law, Viktor.   

You will know he is truly part of the family when he starts telling you what to do !!

[Ade]

I know dysfunctional people with perfectly normal families and perfectly nice, normal people with hugely dysfunctional families. Judging someone by their families is just a little idiotic IMO.


As for meeting families; I would think it more strange for a woman to be willing to present you to her nearest and dearest in the first few days with only some Skype calls to go by. Those that are a little more reticent I would consider more serious and more concerned about finding out the type of person you are in RL before exposing their family to you. Sure, if you don't get introduced on the 2nd visit, I would think it a little strange, but in the 1st week, come on, that's just silly.


Also, about the Skype thing; I've mentioned before, one of my wife's best friend's in Russia cannot afford an internet connection that is good enough to support video. Another friend doesn't have a webcam. Although it's getting more normal to have internet and the accessories to support Skype, it's still possible to find people without for whatever reason.


Basing a scamming accusation on what you think a woman may say is just plain stupid especially after 2 months of talking. Come to think of it, if it takes someone 2 months to figure out someone is a scammer, they probably are a little dense.


Could this woman be a scammer? Yes, it's possible but reaching that conclusion on the evidence thus presented is very unreliable at best.

[JayH]

Fact: I'm not going to introduce a man to my family and friends just to show him that I'm not a scammer. That man today is here and tomorrow he can be anywhere, even meeting another FSUW in another city or country, but my family and friends stay with me forever and I care about them.

Even if there is serious connection at our first meeting. If he is not going to take another trip to meet my family before engagement - it's his loss. Only one trip and meeting is not enough for international marriage anyway, imho.
Of course, many families would want to have contacts with any friends and boyfriends of their daughters, as our parents are usually very invasive when it comes to their kids personal life. 
Yes, most families are interested in meeting with the person who is taking their daughter to another country, but... we are talking about first meeting when WM and FSUW need to spend time together not with friends and parents to learn more about each other. Another thing is how old and independent "the daughter": if she is younger than 26-30 y.o. and still lives with her parents - probably her parents would insist on meeting with WM as early as possible. But what about 30-60 y.o. women who already live by their own, may be have kids, or even live in different cities, far away from their parents?

I agree with most of what you say.It is unreasonable for a guy to be expecting to meet family prematurely.
At some stage a relationship will develop into something the parties think likely to be longer term and and   maybe,MAYBE then it is appropriate.
Guys need to put themselves in a girls position-- she has 10 guys come in 3 weeks- what would family think if included everytime?What would guys think if family started doing suitability interview at first meeting? Most guys would start running!!
On scammers--if guys are incapable of working that out-- forget all this and stay home.