Should Ukrainian men over the age of 18 living abroad be sent home to fight?

[Trenchcoat]

So more focus of recent has been on Ukrainian men living abroad and whether they should be sent home to Ukraine to to fight, or at least work in the economy there to support others to do so:

http://news.err.ee/1609218920/zelenskyy-we-need-those-who-fled-abroad-to-return-to-ukraine

So should Ukrainian men be sent home to fight?

I personally think it unfair that some men face the call up in Ukraine and others skip it. Women and children though I think are a different matter and fair enough for them to be abroad, especially hot sexy young Ukrainian women

Some Ukrainian men of course were children (under 18) when they fled abroad but have since turned 18. Should they be now sent back to Ukraine to join the fight at the front?

I think doing so would enable new vigour on the front lines who include many men who are tired after two years of fighting there. I can only assume these young men that have turned 18 while abroad must be chomping at the bit to return to the front and get a piece of the action at the front. I'm sure their Mothers would be only too proud of them to do so.

Would be interesting to see what members here thought of such a policy if introduced. Word is the EU is already considering such a change in stance to return men over 18 to Ukraine with Ukraine eager for them to do so.

[Bee Farmer]

Trench, there is a saying I would like you to think about.  It is better to appear an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I don't know how anyone could have any doubts.  It's posting garbage like this that makes me believe society is doomed if there are many more people who lack the ability to do critical thinking. 

So more focus of recent has been on Ukrainian men living abroad and whether they should be sent home to Ukraine to to fight

So who or what authority is going to send them back? 

So should Ukrainian men be sent home to fight?

Sent by whom?  Who has the legal authority to send them back home?

I personally think it unfair that some men face the call up in Ukraine and others skip it.

That's a moral issue, not a legal issue.  You have to have a legal reason to send someone back home - and you can't legislate morality.

Should they be now sent back to Ukraine to join the fight at the front?

Once again, who would send them, and on what legal grounds?  There are no countries which have the legal authority to send Ukrainian men back to Ukraine to fight in the war there.  Do you even understand the concept of jurisdiction?

I think doing so would enable new vigour on the front lines who include many men who are tired after two years of fighting there.

Then maybe you should stop thinking.  Anyone with any brains knows that sending people to do a job who don't want to do it, will not improve anything.  It will only make things worse.

I can only assume these young men that have turned 18 while abroad must be chomping at the bit to return to the front and get a piece of the action at the front.

Hasn't anyone ever told you what happens when you assume?  You make an ASS out of U and ME.

Anyone with any brains knows that anyone chomping at the bit to go fight on the front would already be there, and have gotten killed by now.  (Soldiers chomping at the bit to go fight usually get themselves killed real fast with their stupidity.)  And if they were chomping at the bit, they wouldn't need sent back - they would have already went on their own.  Duh.

Would be interesting to see what members here thought of such a policy if introduced.

Who would introduce such a policy?  No European country has that legal authority.  The EU doesn't have that legal authority.

Did you read in the article you cited that Estonia did not comment on extraditing Ukrainian men back to Ukraine to fight in the war?  That's because it's an idiotic suggestion made by people with no brains.  In order for a country to extradite Ukrainian men back to Ukraine, Ukraine would have to issue an arrest warrant.  This would be a legal proceeding.  But since Ukrainian men would face being sent to the front lines, that is essentially a death sentence...which would automatically qualify them for asylum in whatever country they were in.  Duh.

Word is the EU is already considering such a change in stance to return men over 18 to Ukraine with Ukraine eager for them to do so.

The EU can't.  Duh.

The EU countries could evict the men, or order them to leave.  But they can't regulate where the men go.  If the EU evicted them, they could go to Canada...and EU laws don't apply to them there.

Did you also read in the article that Zelensky said this is a moral and ethical issue?  He didn't say it was a legal issue, because it's not a legal issue.  Ukraine doesn't have legal jurisdiction outside of its borders. 

Yes, Ukraine has problems.  A lot of people fled from the war, and they are not supporting the economy or paying taxes.  (Personally, I doubt they are going back.  They have made  anew life for themselves, and it wouldn't make sense to return to rubble with no infrastructure.)  But Ukraine already had problems.  It's called demographics.  After the fall of the Soviet Union, the economy in Ukraine was horrible, and people stopped having kids.  They are in demographic decline.  Even if Ukraine wins tomorrow and regains all the territory the Russians occupy, it will take 20 years to rebuild the Ukrainian economy even if other countries pour a ridiculous amount of reconstruction money in.  By the time the economy gets rebuilt, there won't be enough young people to have enough kids to save Ukraine's population and the economy still dies.  The Ukraine of 2014-2021 is the best Ukraine we will ever see. 

Ukraine is in a downward spiral.  They can't afford to mobilize the 500,000 soldiers Zaluzhny wanted.  But if they want to win the war, they are going to need to mobilize a lot more soldiers.  And if they do that, it's going to drain the economy even worse.

[krimster2]

bee farmer callin someone a fool...
so it appears that irony is dead now, doesn't it?
"hey pot - you're black", said the kettle
black like my dark soul and full of sinister thoughts

speaking of "sinister"
Russia - Borgia Moi!!!
Phutin the Social Engineer has confiscated all abandoned and under utilized properties throughout Russia and is converting these thousands of empty buildings into munitions factories!
this cost will go on top of the ongoing war costs
so don't expect Russia's winter plumbing issues to be resolved this century
Phutin has decreed that NONE of these new facilities can be owned by ANY existing oligarch
ONLY new management, that Phutin will personally select will be the directors/owners of these new enterprises
the lucky beneficiaries will be drawn solely from the military officer class
so Phutin will create a social elite of Russian officers as the new oligarchs and Russian ruling class whose first order of business is to swallow the old oligarchs and their property!
After Phutin dies, his body doubles and an AI video clone will rule russia for another generation...
Meanwhile...
gazillions of chinese are hopping across the southern siberian border, Russians tolerate it cuz, their own people are moving out due to the "conditions" and there's a labor shortage that illegal Chnese immigrants fill...
but...
the Chinese are starting to get power there now....
in Siberia!!!
ALREADY!
they will dominate this area soon, and there's NOTHING Phutin can do about it. cuz he needs China too much to clamp down on them
paka siber!

all the plans I had for Russia 5 years ago, are over and done with now
I did get a TON of valuable material however worth a lotta $$$
in the next few years I'm gonna sell off my home and rentals in Texas (ground zero for climate change) and buy a medium sized farm in Idaho and grow hemp!!!
BTW, my grandfather had a hemp growing license during WWII, he grew it for the NAVY's cordage!

meanwhile, y'all wouldn't believe the crazy stuff goin on Moscva these days
the WAR has changed the public's bahavior, much more angry and aggressive now...
I mean it was BAD before, but NOW... OMG!!!
constant public fighting, harassment
all dewds better wear some kinda "camo" or military style clothing or they'll be "set upon" by militaristic street hooligans and drunk gopnicks
this is encouraged of course
if I were 30 years younger, I'd LOVE IT!!!  but Russia is no country for old men (it's why you don't see any there)
every Russian has to be in at least one martial arts class
here I am with my oldest in Russia when she was little in her martial arts class


for Russia, I prefer Ju-Jitsu, cuz I can use pressue holds and disable someone but not leave permanent damage
in Russia, if I hurt a Russian, it's gonna be my fault, until I pay a bribe to the militsa
better to just not hurt a russian and avoid hassle/cost
OTOH, at the right time and place, you can create yet another unsolved Moscva homocide
yeah, yes, you can....
and that's ALL I gotta say about that

without US military support for Ukraine, Putin sees the potential for tipping the war in his favor, by being able to greatly increase Russian military goods production and then use that to increase the size of his forces to over power Ukraine by brute force
the only drawback...
time...
years...
but by Putin's calculation, it's the people who pay for this time
deaths and reduced economy
and not him
but if this assumption of a long term passive Russian population turns out to be false
he can switch to WMDS in Ukraine
and all major Russian cities have a military backup to the militsa

all russian anti-war protestors are arrested and immediately sent to the front line in the next "meat battalion"
BUT...
today, Russia has three times as many industrial fires as it did pre-war

in Russia, ya wanna be an anti-war protestor
get a lighter....
although I greatly prefer the classic matchbook/cigarette delayed action fuse (let lit cigaretter burn down to matches)

[Trenchcoat]

Thank goodness you're back Krim This forum was virtually dead on its knees. I'm surprised Bee Farmer popped up as a lone survivor lol.

That's an interesting insight into the present situation in Russia. I guess the new military oligarchs are needed to replace the business oligarchs as they will have an interest in not screwing over their own military in corruption but will gain rewards elsewhere like in the armaments factories they are gifted. I'm guessing the existing business oligarchs are getting too much of a risk for Putler to have around since they aren't being satisfied with new lands in Ukraine.

My guess is by the end of the year Russia will have about 500,000 soldiers killed or seriously maimed while Ukraine will have about 300,000.

Ukraine is at least finally getting the €50 billion from the EU which will likely help it out in the meantime but the US $50 billion is likely still needed and will hopefully come through. Russia has apparently built up it's forces but still seems to be losing a lot of it's ground forces and armaments in a weekly basis. Ukraine is suffering from a munitions shortage because of the finance being tied up in the west and it's forces are hard pressed but for the moment they will probably hang on. The big question is who will crack first? Russia is probably using up it's armaments at a faster pace than they can replace them and it only has so much money to buy more. Ukraine is reliant on money from the West and there is only so much off that before the west holds up it's hands and says we're all out!

Beefarmer is caught up on Ukraine having a horrible demographic rate of reproduction. However that is true across the West also, and Russia for different reasons but all the same. However, in the future robots and more automation both mechanical and digital will take over the need for so many workers so I don't think it's going to be a problem anywhere. If needed Ukraine will just drag in Turks or whoever to fill the void. At the moment the world's population is outstripping global resources quicker than they can be replaced so if anything global depopulation is all in the plan.

So far as getting Ukrainians to return home there are probably many measures governments can use if they are so minded and laws & policies can be changed.

At the moment as you have said so often in the past Krim, Ukraine is a likely goldmine for any guy wanting to go from zero interest from women in the west to loads of interest from women. A western guy in Ukraine these days will be seen by the women there as both a passport from Ukraine and a lot more stable and wealthier lifestyle than Ukraine has to look forward too. Yet still I see so many young western dudes oblivious to the rich pickings only a plane flight & train ride away and would rather mope around in the desert with precious little in the offering.

[krimster2]

War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.
--George Orwell--

"The oligarchic clan that rules Russia needed the war,”
--Prighozhin--


Tovarisch Tucker Carlson didn't pursue this line of thought with Phutin's interview, cuz he's paid NOT TO!!!
Disinformatze is the only kind of informatze ya'll gonna hear from Carlson...
spokesman for whatever oligarchy wants to hire him to explain to the masses the policies of their "leaders" in simplistic terms, also known as "lying"
"we cut taxes on billionaires to stimulate job growth"
haha, no ya didn't, the billiionare's used the money for stock buybacks and further enriched themselves at the expense of government tax coffers
you cut taxes on billionaires, cuz the billionaire's bribed you to cut their taxes, you call it "donor maintenance"
and now in about 10 more years or so, the debt load will crash THE WHOLE SYSTEM AND GLOBAL ECONOMY!

In Numeris Veritas
just look at the enconomic projections for the next decade
the decade when climate change starts having some SERIOUS economic costs!
which straw's gonna break the camel's back....
Debt,Drought,Drones,Disease????
all of the above?
and then followed by other letters

[Trenchcoat]

War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.
--George Orwell--

"The oligarchic clan that rules Russia needed the war,”
--Prighozhin--


Tovarisch Tucker Carlson didn't pursue this line of thought with Phutin's interview, cuz he's paid NOT TO!!!
Disinformatze is the only kind of informatze ya'll gonna hear from Carlson...
spokesman for whatever oligarchy wants to hire him to explain to the masses the policies of their "leaders" in simplistic terms, also known as "lying"
"we cut taxes on billionaires to stimulate job growth"
haha, no ya didn't, the billiionare's used the money for stock buybacks and further enriched themselves at the expense of government tax coffers
you cut taxes on billionaires, cuz the billionaire's bribed you to cut their taxes, you call it "donor maintenance"
and now in about 10 more years or so, the debt load will crash THE WHOLE SYSTEM AND GLOBAL ECONOMY!

In Numeris Veritas
just look at the economic projections for the next decade
the decade when climate change starts having some SERIOUS economic costs!
which straw's gonna break the camel's back....
Debt,Drought,Drones,Disease????
all of the above?
and then followed by other letters

I think most governments play their populations and most of the population are too dumb too it. I mean most political parties in power do it and probably in many cases have to do something regardless of what political persuasion they are.

In China there was the 'One Child' policy to curtail the population from growing too large in fear of outstripping ability to produce food for it. It worked and China's population leveled off and now looks set to fall. Chinese men struggled to find a wife as more men were born and female babies often terminated in preference to make babies.

In Russia & Ukraine, etc State support receded after the break up of the USSR so less ability for the population to have babies. However, was this just merely a situation beyond the control of the government? Or deliberate? Money was put into the education system, particularly higher education that could have gone to help Couples have children instead.

In the West, all the 'Gender Equality' stuff came in. The population at large became hoodwinked into thinking that Genders getting equal pay was good and fair while the old system if men getting paid more was evil. Result, more women going to Uni getting obsessed with Careers (Jobs) and not pushing out Kids as a result - a falling population situation.

In comparison to China the West did it most undercover. China was at least upfront with it's population by saying, 'hey we can't support an ever growing population so you all need to not be greedy and just have one child'. People scoff in the west at the State Control without realising that we are being more controlled than the Chinese are, only most are too stupid to realise it - they actually think going to Uni is what they want, that equal pay for genders is their values too - and they fail to see that there is more going on with it all than they realise, it's to keep the population figures down. Not a bad thing in itself but in no way transparent with the population as China has been. Everyone in the West is told that they need to go to Uni and get on and to be somebody lol. Pull the other one 😄

A lower population per country globally is not necessarily a bad thing. Many decades ago countries had a lot less population than they do today. Beefarmer gets too fixated on a loss of Millions of people in certain countries as a disaster but fails to realise countries existed long ago with much smaller population and so countries will endure today just as they did back then. Population loss isn't going to finish Ukraine, Russia will be going through the same thing.

End of the day a lot of governments around the world don't care about famine, wars, viruses. They know that they all help to decrease the global population. It's massive populations that go hungry and on the rampage as a result is what they fear far more, that is a much bigger problem for them.

[krimster2]

The socio-economic decline has been staggeringly rapid. Almost everything, EVERYWHERE is getting worse.
Our fundamental institutions are broken
and living standards, when adjusted properly for living and property costs, are declining.

This is the main reason marriage is losing it's popularity, because it's no longer affordabile for an increasing number of folks to raise a family, so why bother?
young people today don't live in the prosperous world of the "boomers" (who will disappear soon!)
instead, they are experiencing a declining standard of living, which will deepen over time
THIS IS THE FUTURE! either a soft or hard decline, but either way, it's gonna be down and not up, arguable how fast the decline will come/last
AND IT'S TRUE NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY YOU'RE LIVING IN

if you work HARD and play by the rules, you will be totally phuqued as a wage slave BARELY GETTING BY
it's meant to be that way

the only way to live in this system
is to break EVERY RULE and NOT be part of it

Postscript

Dear Mr Putin,
Capturing .006% of Ukraine in 2023 cost 250,000 Russian lives
I did the math, so you don't hafta
and it looks like it's gonna take ABOuT 8 billion Russians to capture all of Ukraine.

SO THE QUESTION is not "WHAT'S YOUR PLAN FOR WINNING THE WAR" CUZ OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVEN'T ONE!
BUT INSTEAD the QUESTION IS "WHY CONTINUE THE WAR, WHEN YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT GONNA WIN IT"

Putin must have some other reasons for continuing the war, not RELATED to achieving victory
i.e. The War itself is the objective, and not JUST to seek new stuff to steal in Ukraine, after he and others stole everything in Russia

yes, he needs the war as a means to give him ABSOLUTE power and control over EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in Russia
the war is the means to accomplish this

Putin's new mission is to make Russia "Sparta"
as in, "this is not madness, this is Sparta"


Putin has already told the world, he intends to take Russia ALL THE WAY into challenging "the status quo" by militaristic ends
supporting Ukraine in this circumstance, is a TOTAL bargain for us!!!

but for the Orange Jesus
who was also inflicted on us by Phutin
who once more controls Ukraine's fate (do "us" a little favor though...and give Putin what he wants")

R U dumb phuques in the west startin to figure this out yet?
cuz if yur not
then in the not too distant future, you're gonna be JUST LIKE Russia!
except worse...
cuz you're already galloping down the highway of stupidity
hydrogen and stupidity are the two most common substances in the universe

[Trenchcoat]

The socio-economic decline has been staggeringly rapid. Almost everything, EVERYWHERE is getting worse.
Our fundamental institutions are broken
and living standards, when adjusted properly for living and property costs, are declining.

This is the main reason marriage is losing it's popularity, because it's no longer affordabile for an increasing number of folks to raise a family, so why bother?
young people today don't live in the prosperous world of the "boomers" (who will disappear soon!)
instead, they are experiencing a declining standard of living, which will deepen over time
THIS IS THE FUTURE! either a soft or hard decline, but either way, it's gonna be down and not up, arguable how fast the decline will come/last
AND IT'S TRUE NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY YOU'RE LIVING IN

if you work HARD and play by the rules, you will be totally phuqued as a wage slave BARELY GETTING BY
it's meant to be that way

the only way to live in this system
is to break EVERY RULE and NOT be part of it

Postscript

Dear Mr Putin,
Capturing .006% of Ukraine in 2023 cost 250,000 Russian lives
I did the math, so you don't hafta
and it looks like it's gonna take ABOuT 8 billion Russians to capture all of Ukraine.

SO THE QUESTION is not "WHAT'S YOUR PLAN FOR WINNING THE WAR" CUZ OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVEN'T ONE!
BUT INSTEAD the QUESTION IS "WHY CONTINUE THE WAR, WHEN YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT GONNA WIN IT"

Putin must have some other reasons for continuing the war, not RELATED to achieving victory
i.e. The War itself is the objective, and not JUST to seek new stuff to steal in Ukraine, after he and others stole everything in Russia

yes, he needs the war as a means to give him ABSOLUTE power and control over EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in Russia
the war is the means to accomplish this

Putin's new mission is to make Russia "Sparta"
as in, "this is not madness, this is Sparta"


Putin has already told the world, he intends to take Russia ALL THE WAY into challenging "the status quo" by militaristic ends
supporting Ukraine in this circumstance, is a TOTAL bargain for us!!!

but for the Orange Jesus
who was also inflicted on us by Phutin
who once more controls Ukraine's fate (do "us" a little favor though...and give Putin what he wants")

R U dumb phuques in the west startin to figure this out yet?
cuz if yur not
then in the not too distant future, you're gonna be JUST LIKE Russia!
except worse...
cuz you're already galloping down the highway of stupidity
hydrogen and stupidity are the two most common substances in the universe

I think that is the big thing, at the moment there is almost a limit in theory and possibly in practice on population size as housing shortages push up housing costs that make it unaffordable for many to have children. In places like India where tin shacks can be built and lived in due to the warm temperatures this is less of a problem and the population has ballooned there because of it, but in colder climates where that is not possible and formal housing must be built it limits the population.

I myself am wealthier than many in my country and it would probably only be just about manageable for me after all these years and the UK is a wealthy country with a welfare state support that isn't too bad. Sure there are many weather but also many poorer that also have children. I think one of the problems in the past in the UK that welfare support wasn't limited and too generous in housing to the Social Housing crowd, the lowest echelon of society. While some are lovely enough people they often are in the lowest echelon of society as they are the least capable, incapable or just don't want to be capable. Many are fun people but mess around a lot and so in the UK I think that section of society has ballooned while offering little back in return other than a burden. They are often unemployed or unemployable, are more accidents prone and have more problems or fall into crime usually in an unsuccessful way.

Anyhow, yes the present situation in the UK seems to be an ever increasingly dysfunctional society. All that anyone that can do is seemly ignore it and press on as best they can in their own lives.

In the future it looks like population will go into a decline with the passing of the baby boomers and then possibly ease up for future generations perhaps somewhere towards 2030 to 2050 or so, where they don't produce as many children as the baby boom generation but aren't as constricted as our generation.

[krimster2]

mustn't grumble...

yes, it seems the remaining sand left in the hourglass is running low
but why?
maybe the hourglass got all filled up in WWII and has just taken this long to drip down
I dunno...
or maybe the economy is always a zero-sum game, and the economic winners are eatin the losers that the winners depend upon, so the economy becomes a snake devouring itself
but I will tell ya this, when that last little tiny white grain of sand falls to the bottom of the hourglass
it'll be a good day to die

it seems that the world is heading towards some "finality"
and not just a rising/falling business cycle
but something a bit more ominous than a recession...

by the pricking of my thumb
something wicked this way comes