Dreams of happiness shatter at dawn

[groovlstk]

My take on this is that a "typical" courtship (if such a thing exists) between a Western man and an FSU woman has a special ebb and flow that is much more extreme than most home-grown relationships. There are times when each side must make extraordinary concessions, show enormous generosity, and exhibit the patience of Job. IMHO, there are stretches during this pursuit when a man needs to be a bit selfish, and setting the conditions of a first meeting on her home turf is one of those "ebb" times, as he should be covering his popka. 

(And to be fair to BF, this thinking goes out the window if a guy courts a woman who can and will assume the same risks. But during my search I dated dozens of women in Ukraine and Russia and only one offered to pay her half when we went on vacation together.)

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, there are many FSU women who would never leave their country to meet a stranger. The FREEPS are full of Germans, Italians, and clueless Americans who suggest a first meeting on their own turf, all expenses paid, of course. If one of my wife's single friends received such an offer, I'd strongly advise her to tell the guy to flake off - either he's a nut or he's too much of a wuss to travel to Russia or Ukraine for a first meeting, and either way he's a tosser.

[Lily]

Well, and let's not forget the challenge of getting a visa, and the cost. Only a small proportion of women in Russia (less than 15% would be my estimate) could afford to fly out to Switzerland for a vacation.

 

I don't have the statistics at hand, but my feeling is that this percentage is considerably higher.

[ScottinCrimea]

Lily,  Just for fun I priced the cost of a 10 day stay in Zurich including round trip flight from Kiev and hotel.  For a hotel about 15km outside the city the best price I found was around $2,000.  Add another $600 if you want something in town. The price was about theo sme from Moscow.  Add to that food and miscellaneous expenses and you're easily well over $3,000.  Now in reality, how many RW could afford to pay that everytime they wanted to meet a new foreign man?  For many, that's a year's pay.

[Misha]

Lily,  Just for fun I priced the cost of a 10 day stay in Zurich including round trip flight from Kiev and hotel.  For a hotel about 15km outside the city the best price I found was around $2,000.  Add another $600 if you want something in town. The price was about theo sme from Moscow.  Add to that food and miscellaneous expenses and you're easily well over $3,000.  Now in reality, how many RW could afford to pay that everytime they wanted to meet a new foreign man?  For many, that's a year's pay.

Most people in Moscow could not afford to drop $3000 on a trip and Moscow wages are several times higher than the rest of the country! This article (in Russian) gives a breakdown on the usual wages in Moscow: http://news.by/511/2007-07-19/35622/. If you look at the professions where women tend to predominate (education, health), the average woman in Moscow would likely earn between 16,000 and 18,000 roubles (600-750 USD per month depending on exchange rates). If she has her own apartment or lives with her parents and has no expenses to speak of,she might be able to afford such a trip, but these are all pretty big "ifs". My wife has a friend who works in Moscow earning 17,000 roubles a month working two jobs (this includes both the official salary and the "envelope" she gets at the end of the month). She spends 5,000 roubles on an apartment she shares with a friend 2+ hours from Moscow and spends 3,000-5,000 roubles on transportation going to and from work. Plus, she pays 2,000 roubles to continue her studies part-time. Then, of course, there is food, clothing and all the usual other expenses. If she is lucky, she puts some money aside at the end of the month and may be able to afford a trip to Turkey staying at a cheap resort that attracts Russian tourists. I doubt she will be jetting off to Switzerland or Germany or England any time soon. And this is Moscow! The average wage would me much lower in any other smaller city far from the capital.

[Blues Fairy]

It may take a man or woman to go through 10 people before they find one they like. If you went and paid for your own vacation to meet a man and it didn't work out, would you give the next man and the next you meet equal treatment until you find one you like? Not many people could afford vacations for each date until they find the one they like.

True - that's why I treated these blind dates as an exciting supplement to my already arranged vacations, not the other way round.   The regatta was arranged through my sailing club in Moscow and the idea to invite my overseas Cirano to join occured to me literally in the last moment.  I didn't pin very great hopes on it anyway. 

Equal treatment to the next man and the next - no, but I like to give equal treatment to myself, next time and next time and next...    I'm not so stupid as to use the word "equal" in the sense your American feminists use it, no.  But if my posts help dispel the hard-set notion of RW as desperate women from a third world, happy to accomodate any imposed meeting scenario, I'll be very content.   

[Misha]

True - that's why I treated these blind dates as an exciting supplement to my already arranged vacations, not the other way round.   The regatta was arranged through my sailing club in Moscow and the idea to invite my overseas Cirano to join occured to me literally in the last moment.  I didn't pin very great hopes on it anyway. 

Equal treatment to the next man and the next - no, but I like to give equal treatment to myself, next time and next time and next...    I'm not so stupid as to use the word "equal" in the sense your American feminists use it, no.  But if my posts help dispel the hard-set notion of RW as desperate women from a third world, happy to accomodate any imposed meeting scenario, I'll be very content.   

Your sailing club?!? Hmmm, methinks you do not belong to the Russian "middle-class" rather the small Russian elite. Only a small percent of Russians would travel in your circles!

[Blues Fairy]

Your sailing club?!? Hmmm, methinks you do not belong to the Russian "middle-class" rather the small Russian elite. Only a small percent of Russians would travel in your circles!

Oh no, I just don't have any kids or ailing relatives, or major health problems. My job pays well but not so well as to afford an apartment of my own.  So I invested in vacations. By the way, ALL my friends can easily afford a windsurfing vacation in Egypt, and they are very far from being oil tycoons. 

[Misha]

Oh no, I just don't have any kids or ailing relatives, or major health problems. My job pays well but not so well as to afford an apartment of my own.  So I invested in vacations. By the way, ALL my friends can easily afford a windsurfing vacation in Egypt, and they are very far from being oil tycoons. 

Okay, that is a different story. Egypt is popular with Russians because it is a) cheap and b) one of the few places that Russians can travel without having to worry about getting turned down for a visa. Egypt is not Switzerland :-) If I go to this Russian-language website, I can see what tours are available: http://www.1001tur.ru/hot.htm. I can get 7 days including hotel, breakfast and supper for roughly $550 dollars. The flight might cost a few extra hundred dollars. Again, if you do not have to pay rent and have a good job, you will be able to afford one, maybe two tours per year.

However, keep in mind that not all Russian women are so fortunate. If you have a job that does not pay so well in Moscow and you have to pay rent, you won't have any money for Egypt, let alone Switzerland. If you do not live in Moscow, you are likely to be paid two-to-three times less than you will be paid in Moscow.

What this means is that the vast majority of women won't be able fly to Europe to meet any man.

[jb]

But if my posts help dispel the hard-set notion of RW as desperate women from a third world,

Russia was never a part of the "Third World", it was always the leader of the "Second World".  Let's get our terms right.

[I/O]

Well, IME, the foreign women I have met have generally been delighted with my offer to meet them in their home city.  My impression is that they have felt secure in their own environment and have felt that THEY had control of their own situation to a large extent. 

As for hard earned vacation time.  CaptB nailed it pretty good (As usual) in so far as if I ain't worth some of her vacation time, then she ain't worth me. BTW B/F there is a whole lot more to mine and my meeting in the first instance than long letter writing and me in her city, but that's another story and I leave that out lest some idiot try to follow the same path we were crazy enough to follow.

I could give you a whole new take on the term "MOB" or E-MOB depending on how you like to look at it.

I/O

[CaptB]

This will be my last post on "Totorro's" trip report. Totorro.........sorry for "hijacking your thread. Somehow (someone) the comments about visiting an RW in her hometown got turned into "vacation time.......a waste of valuable time for meeting strangers (men)". The discussion "was" about the merrits of meeting in her hometown. I used LTP agency in Tver, Russia, for my first trip. I met several dozen nice women......all of whom did not take a single day of "vacation" time.......to meet me. I dated a doctor in Moscow, for a time, who I insisted "not" to take any vacation time off on
our first meeting (she did on our second meeting). When I went to visit my "wife" for the first time......again I insisted that taking vacation time off was not necessary. My future wife did locate an appartment for me.....prior to my trip. I found my own entertainment, shopping, busses, route taxi etc. My dear wife did take three weeks off from work......so we could be married.......... in Russia. She did say that particular "vacation".........was time well-spent. 


Capt B

[Lily]

Oh no, I just don't have any kids or ailing relatives, or major health problems. My job pays well but not so well as to afford an apartment of my own.  So I invested in vacations. By the way, ALL my friends can easily afford a windsurfing vacation in Egypt, and they are very far from being oil tycoons. 

I second Blue Fairy on that. To her reasons about not having health or family problems, I'd add not being in a mortgage.

My colleagues often go for vacation to France, Spain, Italy, Egypt, Turkey. If someone has a mortgage, she or he obviously says goodbye to any travels and to any expenses other than bare necessities. I work for a big international company in Moscow, and the company is really not the top paying employer.

I am aware of the salaries picture that you show here, but women also work outside education and medicine  I know a couple of friends in the educational field, and agree with you that they apparently would not go to France for vacations. 

I spent my last vacation in Holland near Utrecht, and spent roughly totally about 2000 USD. No travel agent, no private invitation, a small modest hotel.  You know, in most cases a person is still able to plan her expenses reasonably withing a range even in more expensive locations.

[DKMM]

I'd like to add that yes many girls in Russia seem to be willing and able to fund their own vacations.  My fiancee has been all over Europe and North Africa and comes from a rather modest background and zero family support.  I don't know how they do it, but they manage to save like crazy.  Ditto for all her friends and they are professionals in their upper 20's. 

My analysis of their cost of living is they pay nearly nothing to entertain themselves, rent is cheap even in Moscow because they share flats.  Utilities are rather low, no car payments or insurance (health or otherwise).  When take home pay average a grand I guess it can be done.

[Lily]

My analysis of their cost of living is they pay nearly nothing to entertain themselves, rent is cheap even in Moscow because they share flats.  Utilities are rather low, no car payments or insurance (health or otherwise).  When take home pay average a grand I guess it can be done.

Private rent in Moscow could take about 1/3 of the net income, depending on efforts and luck at search. That's the biggest part of her expenses. In case she enjoys stay at her parents or has a flat on her own, she does not have even this expense. Utilities are low indeed and are a generally neglectable part of expenses. Insurance is usually done by employer.

[Blues Fairy]

If you have a job that does not pay so well in Moscow and you have to pay rent, you won't have any money for Egypt, let alone Switzerland.

That's a theme for a separate thread, "Why Russian girls can afford Switzerland but not an apartment in Moscow." 

[Shadow]

I spent my last vacation in Holland near Utrecht, and spent roughly totally about 2000 USD. No travel agent, no private invitation, a small modest hotel.  You know, in most cases a person is still able to plan her expenses reasonably withing a range even in more expensive locations.

For how many days was that ? Next time you want to come to Holland it could be arranged to get better accomodation at the same price, or lower. But the food and drinks are expensive.

[Misha]

I second Blue Fairy on that. To her reasons about not having health or family problems, I'd add not being in a mortgage.

My colleagues often go for vacation to France, Spain, Italy, Egypt, Turkey. If someone has a mortgage, she or he obviously says goodbye to any travels and to any expenses other than bare necessities. I work for a big international company in Moscow, and the company is really not the top paying employer.

I am aware of the salaries picture that you show here, but women also work outside education and medicine  I know a couple of friends in the educational field, and agree with you that they apparently would not go to France for vacations. 

I spent my last vacation in Holland near Utrecht, and spent roughly totally about 2000 USD. No travel agent, no private invitation, a small modest hotel.  You know, in most cases a person is still able to plan her expenses reasonably withing a range even in more expensive locations.

It was certainly one of the reasons why I would never have married a woman from Moscow :-) I would not have been able to afford the lifestyle she expected.

[Rando21]

The thread is being distracted by an exception rather than the rule.

No matter what Blue Fairy says...it a terrible idea for a first meeting to be a vacation. There are so many reasons against it that it shouldn't require any explanation.

Vacation whores...which is a accurate and reliable description of 95 % of these meetings is a real threat. This is what the thread starter here experienced. No matter what logic others have attributed to her...she decided to not spoil her vacation by telling the truth to this man who was sponsoring her trip. She lost her wallet and he offered to help ..she refused...end of story...her decision.

People act differently on vacation. Billy B is spot on. Listen to his advise it is honest and correct. These sex, vacation , meetings are not the first step you should be making. Find the good honest girl first...after the successful first trip and further lasting and meaningful continued connection...then consider treating you both to a relaxed getaway and rest.

Its notable that attitudes like Blue fairy are common and in fact far less noble and honest then she alludes to. Many who cant afford the special trip have discovered a method to fund such adventures. Its foolish for a man to fund these meetings. Its wrong every single time.

Blue Fairy was in US before...what were the circumstances? From your attitude...I can guess. And I also can guess why you are returned to your beloved Moscow.

For the post starter...you have nothing to be ashamed of...in fact you seem to have tried...and were honest...she was not...you dodged a bullet. Smile and feel lucky! Don't WOVO!!! read Billy advice and follow his plan...its the best chance for success...You can make several short trips from your location....dont fall in love with a picture or a letter ...and dont guess about how she feels about you. If you are wondering how she feels ???? Then shes not into you! You will not mistake her true attraction to you...it is not subtle ...its not hidden...If you are wondering >>>Gee does she like me???? Then she does NOT! You will know....dont settle for less.

[Gator]

Gabaub wrote,

It was certainly one of the reasons why I would never have married a woman from Moscow :-) I would not have been able to afford the lifestyle she expected.

Have you ever met a woman from Moscow.  I have heard this hype about Moscow women for five years.   It is BULLSHIT.  Good women are everywhere; it is your job to find them and woo them.

No need to discuss this at length and divert from Totoro's thread even further.  Go to this 13-page thread from only 7 months ago.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3456.0

That thread had the usual spirited discourse and divergence.  Nevertheless, read what KenC, JB and Turbo had to say on page 1.  

On the very topic of high maintenance, go to the very last post (on page 13), where I discuss exactly that regarding a sophisticated 8-th generation Muscovite, complete with photos and hard examples.  This woman knows fashion, politics, ballet, theater, wine and music.  Having said that, she reads detective novels, watches variety shows on TV, eats awful salty fish and washes it down with beer, etc.  She rode around in the Florida summer like a Cracker with windows down and no makeup.    In my 3+ years with her, she never said anything negative about anyone.  She was even polite to sales people.  

I have seen worse behavior from provincial women, but I will stereotype them because I also met many fine women from the provinces.

Some of you men need to do a lot more research and thinking before making conclusions.

[Misha]

Gabaub wrote,
Have you ever met a woman from Moscow.  I have heard this hype about Moscow women for five years.   It is BULL*snip*.  Good women are everywhere; it is your job to find them and woo them.

No need to discuss this at length and divert from Totoro's thread even further.  Go to this 13-page thread from only 7 months ago.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3456.0

That thread had the usual spirited discourse and divergence.  Nevertheless, read what KenC, JB and Turbo had to say on page 1.  

On the very topic of high maintenance, go to the very last post (on page 13), where I discuss exactly that regarding a sophisticated 8-th generation Muscovite, complete with photos and hard examples.  This woman knows fashion, politics, ballet, theater, wine and music.  Having said that, she reads detective novels, watches variety shows on TV, eats awful salty fish and washes it down with beer, etc.  She rode around in the Florida summer like a Cracker with windows down and no makeup.    In my 3+ years with her, she never said anything negative about anyone.  She was even polite to sales people.  

I have seen worse behavior from provincial women, but I will stereotype them because I also met many fine women from the provinces.

Some of you men need to do a lot more research and thinking before making conclusions.

Well, I have been been travelling to Russia for the past 12 years for work and if I were to add all the time that I lived in Russia the past 12 years, it would add up to well over 3 years spent in the country and I have visited 10 or more cities (including Moscow). I also speak Russian fluently. I think I know a thing or two about Russia :-)

[Gator]

Gabaub,

Very impressive credentials.  However, did you ever date a few Moscow women?  Did you try to meet a few outside of discos?

I met a sincere, slim 26-yo woman from Moscow last month.  She speaks excellent English and even better French.  She is a close friend of my woman and has trouble meeting good RM.  She dated a couple of European men with little success.  She asked me to help introduce her to some American men, up to the age of 55.  Your blanket conclusion would eliminate her outright even if she had a heart of gold and could outshine Cleopatra, the Queen of the Nile.

[Misha]

Gabaub,

Very impressive credentials.  However, did you ever date a few Moscow women?  Did you try to meet a few outside of discos?

I met a sincere, slim 26-yo woman from Moscow last month.  She speaks excellent English and even better French.  She is a close friend of my woman and has trouble meeting good RM.  She dated a couple of European men with little success.  She asked me to help introduce her to some American men, up to the age of 55.  Your blanket conclusion would eliminate her outright even if she had a heart of gold and could outshine Cleopatra, the Queen of the Nile.

I dated a number of women from Russia. Yes, there are wonderful women in Russia, but it is all about expectations. If you are used to travelling a few times per year when single, you will likely expect the same after your marriage. It may be difficult for you to adjust if all of a sudden you are traveling less (or not at all) and you and your husband have to worry about mortgages and bills.

And, as for the discos, how do you know where I meet women or do not meet women? It seems to me that you do not like anybody challenging your "authority" :-)

[Gator]

Gaubaub,

I have no authority.  Misconceptions bother me, however.  I am challenging your blanket statement about Moscow women.  Nothing else.  You are not the only man carrying such a misconception. 

I asked if you dated any Moscow women?  You did not answer.  You still have not answered.

If you have some experience with Moscow women, let us start another thread and compare provincial women with Moscow women.  I have met many Moscow women and many provincial women.  In my opinion, they are equal.

[Gator]

Rando21,

I thought you were wiser than this.

Vacation whores...which is a accurate and reliable description of 95 % of these meetings is a real threat.

Have you taken 20 trips and learned that only one woman was sincere?   If not, your conclusion has no foundation.

Its notable that attitudes like Blue fairy are common and in fact far less noble and honest then she alludes to. Many who cant afford the special trip have discovered a method to fund such adventures. Its foolish for a man to fund these meetings. Its wrong every single time.

Blue Fairy was in US before...what were the circumstances? From your attitude...I can guess. And I also can guess why you are returned to your beloved Moscow.

Undeserved and unfounded.  Instead of such personal attacks, why could you not say simply that you prefer the attitude of women who are not financially independent?   I am not defending Blues Fairy, as she and I have disagreed on other topics; however, this type of vile attack sounds more like resentment if not jealousy.  Such insulting suppositions do not encourage RW to post here, and that concerns me the most.   

[Blues Fairy]

Its notable that attitudes like Blue fairy are common and in fact far less noble and honest then she alludes to. Many who cant afford the special trip have discovered a method to fund such adventures. Its foolish for a man to fund these meetings. Its wrong every single time.
Blue Fairy was in US before...what were the circumstances? From your attitude...I can guess. And I also can guess why you are returned to your beloved Moscow.

Woooooow this load of **** really smells of medieval witch hunt and the logic is akin to that of Jesuit prosecutors. 
First, Blues not Blue - I am a part-time singer and used to work with a Moscow-based blues band, hence the handle.
Second, my "attitude" is a natural result of my two higher educations, one of which (my MA) I pursued in one of top US schools, and of my 100% independent existence since the age of 17. No, not as a prostitute, as would be your first guess. Use your imagination, if you have any.