Need advice on winning my girl back.

[Faux Pas]

Rattlehead
The members here do love to lend support and even though it doesn't feel like to you, thats is exactly what they are doing now. They are telling you what you need to know not necessarily what you want to hear. You're young, cocky and a bit hot-headed. You blew up and called this girl a vacation whole (not your words) and the chances are very slim that she would EVER forgive you for that. One day in the future and hopefully sooner than later, you'll realize words can cut like a knife. Whether you actually meant those words or not doesn't matter in this girls mind.

The salon idea is a bad one. You've already called her names for accepting your gifts. Do you think there is a difference to her now? Short of traveling back over there while the coals are still warm and begging her forgiveness on bended knees, I don't think you have a chance either. The one you do have is slim to none. Sorry guy, hopefully you can garner a lesson from this one without the bitterness.

[Blues Fairy]

I wondered why someone would do that, and the only reason I could think of was to get a free trip and a few gifts that I gave her.  So I was rather quick to write an email back basically accusing her of doing this.

I'd say she was mild on you; she could've just called you a moron and been done with you.  Men who so easily take offense and think the worst of you are a curse, and being a smart girl she probably understands that.
 
Don't give any silly presents and don't think too much of yourself.  If she gives you a chance, humbly apologize for your silly letter.

[Wayne]

From my experience with Ukrainian and Russian women, I would agree with most of the advise already given to you.  That is, don't waste any more time on this certain girl.  You are very young and should be able to attract many girls. 

I made many mistakes in my pursuits.  Now, I can say you should not stick with any girl who does not seem totally devoted to you.  You may win her back, so to seem, but only to the extent that she will use you. 

If you go to Ukraine to live, as you said, you will have a chance to meet many girls.  I would suggest you go to some of the smaller cities to look. 

I do not know if you believe in God, but my advise would be to look for a girl who does and goes to church.  When you start raising children, it helps. 

From my experience, if a girl is willing to have sex right away when she does not really know you, and agrees to go to another city with you, these are all very bad signs.  If you are just looking to party, then this type of girl is OK.  But if you are looking for a future life, look for someone else.

[tim 360]

Rattlehead,  From what you have written it may very well be that YOU have made this "relationship" to be far more than what it was.  Maybe the brief time together meant alot more to you and meant much less to her?  

The email you sent her about her using you for stuff would, I am confident not impress her and some words, once said are very difficult to erase.  Always a good idea to think before you type.  Honestly, this is probably a very nice girl who did not try to use you for "stuff".  If she was a scammer she could have easily scammed you given your mindset.

From your words you seem to want someone to agree with your viewpoint and this you may not find here.  Maybe elsewhere?

I do appreciate your desire to figure out how to resolve things with her and to find out the truth of why she "dumped" you after a few dates.  You may only find that answer by jumping on a plane and seeing her and apologize for your words and behaviour.  However, that course may be foolish. You do have to realize she may have a boyfriend and not be too very interested in you at all.

[GoodOlBoy]

From my experience with Ukrainian and Russian women, I would agree with most of the advise already given to you.  That is, don't waste any more time on this certain girl.  You are very young and should be able to attract many girls. 
I made many mistakes in my pursuits. 

WAYNE, not to be RUDE, but you really have to be kidding giving anybody advice right now. Considering the drama that you are presently involved in with your wife, if I were you, I would probably read alot more and post A LOT less advice right now. Just my 2 cents.

[BillyB]

The trouble is that I can't forget about her. 

You put your best foot foward and took her on multiple vacations and she doesn't like what she saw. Your obession with her will be more of a turn off although you are trying to turn her back on. She told you "NO". Recognize that. If you want to impress her and show her you're a strong man, walk away and move on.

If you want advice on how to contact her, write her an email. If she doesn't respond, you have another "no" answer. Don't spend anymore money on this lady in pursuit of her. She's telling you that. Most everyone here is telling you that. The best thing you can do is start looking elsewhere and find someone that's into you as much as you are into her.

[Sculpto]

Rattle..

For the most part I agree with everyone who has posted that it is probably too late.

I would also very much agree that your plan would not getthe desired results and even though romantically concieved would have a negative result. 

If you really don't want to let go of this girl and want to really prove you are sincere then drop everything and get on a plane and go to her.  Now that would be a gesture.  However, I still think it will result in nothing good happening.

One other option would be just to let it go for now.  Wait a couple of months and then try to call her.. but only if you have your finger on the go button to go see her again.

But really.. I think you should just move on.  I feel you have gotten too emotionally involved with someone you barely know and you are not thinking or seeing things clearly.

best of luck...

[Jooky]

So much doom and gloom over nothing in this thread.

Rattlehead, it seems you have many questions running around your mind.

Did you misread the tone of her message thanks to the online translator? Probably, it happens all the time.

Do you have a chance with this girl in the future? Sure. People have had much worse arguments and ended up happily together. I've known guys that won over a girl (but not with gifts and flowers) who initially had no attraction and they ended up happily together. The sure way to fail is to not even try.

What exactly was running through her mind when she broke things off? Did she not like you so much? Does she have a boyfriend? Did her friends and family put ideas in her head about the futility of a long distance romance? Was the communciation really frustrating her? Could be any or all of the above. Don't worry about it. You'll never know exactly and you'll go crazy trying to figure it out. It's in the past, move on to the present.

Can she forgive your insult? Women in Russia forgive their husbands and serious boyfriends who beat them and cheat on them all the time. You offended this girl during a heated email argument. No big deal. She already broke the ice and sent you a message. People seem to have missed this. Do you really think she wants to compare thoughts about the election? Hell no. She regrets what happens and used the opportunity as an excuse to rekindle a conversation with you. She's already half way forgiven you. Now it's your turn to take a step.

I've often read on these boards how "Russian Women" are stubborn and unforgiving. They don't say sorry, and they don't say thanks. Funny, that's hasn't been my experience living more than half the year in Russia. I've heard sorry. I hear thanks all the time. Yes, I've met difficult, demanding and unforgiving women in Russia. These are the women Russian men avoid, and so do I. I can see why many women like this would end up on bridal sites. They're not much of a catch back home.

My advice:

Save the romantic flower surprise for a girl you're dating. Don't use it as a way to 'win' a girl's heart. You've already insulted her saying she was using you for gifts. Don't use gifts to get her back. It won't work.

Email her back. You've got nothing to lose by doing so. She wrote to you a week ago, don't let too much time go by before you respond. Tell her you're sorry about what you said, but don't overdo it. There's no need to beg forgiveness on your knees. Tell her you're coming back in January if you really intend to do so. Tell her about your plans to live in Ukraine and simply keep in touch with her. Be friends.

I'm sure she'll be willing to see you again if indeed you end up living in Ukraine. Then take things as they come. You'll also have plenty of chances with other nice women if you end up living in Ukraine. If this girl really liked you, and she probably did, you'll get your chance.

About working in Ukraine, one option is to find work that you can do online, from anywhere. How much time have you spent in Russia or Ukraine? You might be disappointed living there full time.

Take it easy and good luck!

[Gator]

Jooky,

I usually agree with you but not this time.

Will a RW forgive her man?  Yes, if the man makes a big show and means something to her.  I have seen young RM chasing their offended young woman and pleading for forgiveness in demonstrative manner, sometimes with flowers in hand.  It impressed me as part of the dating ritual among young Russians, whether true or not.

I have had an older RW say that she forgives me, then sometime later (days, weeks, months) throw the offense back into my face.  That is not my definition of forgiveness.  In contrast, my wife will forgive me and never bring up the subject again  (“past is past”).  That is forgiveness, and I did not find this trait common among the handful of RW I knew long enough to have offended.  You have more experience than me, dated younger women, and perhaps all your dates were not marriage minded.  Thus, YMMV.

I hope you will agree with me that RW have a lot of pride, too much at times.  An insult is one of the gravest sins. 

I did miss the fact that Rattlehead's dream woman had written him again.  Rattlehead’s RW may have reacted too fast as he did, and perhaps she is trying to keep the door open and not burn the bridge.  Perhaps.

If so, there is a glimmer of hope and your plan is plausible.  His letter should be translated and he should ask her to respond in Russian.   IMO, it is still a 20:1 shot.   Thus, Rattlehead would better take this lesson and his energy and apply them to  the hundreds if not thousands of women who could be just as interesting to Rattlehead as the current women. 

Besides, I think Rattlehead did not spend enough time to be in such a haze of infatuation.  When a fish breaks the line and gets away, the fisherman usually will imagine that the fish is much bigger than it actually was, especially when we are young.

[OlgaH]

But how do I go about doing this Olga?  Would you be pleased with a man who went through all the trouble and expense that I describe in my proposed plan, or would you be more impressed by the calm coolness of just sending an email without any bells and whistles?

I would be impressed by honest and sincere words without any bells and whistles.
 
My advice would be same as Jooky's.
I also think, if she is not able or don't want to accept the words of you sincere apology, no gifts can help. It means that she is not interested in relationship with you.

So, try your chance as Jooky suggests 

My advice:

Save the romantic flower surprise for a girl you're dating. Don't use it as a way to 'win' a girl's heart. You've already insulted her saying she was using you for gifts. Don't use gifts to get her back. It won't work.

Email her back. You've got nothing to lose by doing so. She wrote to you a week ago, don't let too much time go by before you respond. Tell her you're sorry about what you said, but don't overdo it. There's no need to beg forgiveness on your knees. Tell her you're coming back in January if you really intend to do so. Tell her about your plans to live in Ukraine and simply keep in touch with her. Be friends.

[OlgaH]

Well, I'd advise that girl to run as fast as she can and never look back, because if guy uses quote ""I love the smell of napalm in the morning..." as his daily motto than he just can't be good (even if this quote is from the classic Apocalypse Now)...

Ooooops,

I think he just needs to meet a girl who shares his taste 

[Blues Fairy]

I hope you will agree with me that RW have a lot of pride, too much at times.  An insult is one of the gravest sins. 

I did miss the fact that Rattlehead's dream woman had written him again.

Actually it's the OP who strikes me as being excessively touchy and quick to take offense.  If the email he wrote to that girl is any indication of his pattern behavior, he must be a really difficult person to be with.  She might have just been nice and given him the "objective" excuses - her lack of English skills, etc. 

[BillyB]

  She might have just been nice and given him the "objective" excuses - her lack of English skills, etc. 

That is the way many women say "No". The sooner men learn this, the better off they'll be. Rattles' woman told him she has a hard time communicating with him and could never live in his country. She also ignored him for two weeks. She told him "no" at least 3 times there. Some of those "no" were barriers she could not overcome with Rattle. Maybe the truth, maybe an excuse to get rid of him. Rattle then accused her of using him for vacations. She told him she hated him. Another "no" answer for Rattle.

Men should save offering fancy vacations only for women that they are in an exclusive relationship with. Rattle should have not offered to take his woman to various countries since she was only a friend. Also men should not assume gifts will buy a woman's love. If you buy a woman a gift or vacation, do it out of kindness, expect nothing in return or do it because you already love her, not because you are trying to win/buy her affection.

Some RW can forgive their man for bad behavior even when it comes to infidelity. Those women may do that because they are into the man or because they love them even with faults or because they've invested too much time with the man in a marriage to have it broken up over an incident or they have kids with the man and need his financial support.

But Rattlehead's woman put all kinds of barriers up and told him "no" to the relationship before he insulted her. It was over before there was ever a relationship or an insult.

Write the email Rattlehead. Apologize. Don't expect anything in return. And never again spend so much money on vacations for a woman and expect her to stay in a relationship with you. Secure a relationship first based on who you are, then enjoy life together.

[viking]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php#3

Will this help clear up some background here?

[Faux Pas]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php#3

Will this help clear up some background here?

Not really......something must be wrong with your link

[Misha]

She might have just been nice and given him the "objective" excuses - her lack of English skills, etc. 

We would need the male version of the self-help book: "He's Just Not That Into You: The No-Excuses Truth to Understanding Guys." Just for RWD we could call it: "She's Just Not That Into You: The No-Excuses Truth to Understanding Russian Women."  :evil:

[dazzler]

Men should save offering fancy vacations only for women that they are in an exclusive relationship with. Rattle should have not offered to take his woman to various countries since she was only a friend. Also men should not assume gifts will buy a woman's love. If you buy a woman a gift or vacation, do it out of kindness, expect nothing in return or do it because you already love her, not because you are trying to win/buy her affection.

Interesting point here BillyB and one that perhaps I have misunderstood myself over the years.  I always thought that if a man (including myself) purchased any kind of gift whether it be flowers and chocolate or a weekend vacation then that would speak volumes for how SERIOUS he was about the woman.  I assume if Rat is anything like me (and he sounds similar) then he would of taken the woman's acceptance of the gifts as a sign that she WAS interested in him   Certainly that is my logic in this thinking.  I do not think of it as "buying" a woman's love, but rather as a romantic gesture   OK I hear you all reading this and saying naiive, but that is my thought pattern!  You see some men (and I happen to be 1 of them) know instinctively when they meet someone special and therefore they try to win the woman's heart.  Is this not a case of a man knowing what he wants and doing everything humanly possible within the realms of budget, timescales etc.. to achieve THAT?  Or am I missing the point?  I just don't see too much wrong with Rat's intentions or actions at all.  I'll have to go back to his original post and read it again, but from what I can ascertain, Rat's time was limited and he met this wonderful lady of his dreams by chance!  He didn't know if she would be interested in knowing him so he spent some time with her and it went well (so far).  He then asks her if she wants to come to Kiev (if I recall correctly) and she says YES.  OK another good sign.  And then that goes well so he then asks her if she wants to come to St Petersburg I think it was and she says YES!!!  I wouldn't be suprised if there were signs of affection too (although I'll have to re-read everything again to find out!). So far I'd say this lady is giving Rat more than just a few positive signs.  I am assuming that Rat has been explaining his intentions to move to Ukraine and how he has to go back to USA to raise enough money to be able to make this move permanent.   The lady seemed happy to accept all of this ( or else she would surely have said something?!??).  I also assume if the lady had a boyfriend then she would DEFINITELY NOT have accepted any of Rat's vacation propositions.  I'll have to go back to the original post to get ALL the points again, but a few things have become apparent to me over the few years of trying to find a lady from Russia and Ukraine (aged 20-28 I might add).  Just so you know it's NOT necessarily you Rat and other men have suffered similar fates!

1) They CAN fall deeply in love with you, but then the moment you have to go back to your country to raise the money to come back etc...  guess what.... they lose interest just as quickly.

2) Many women seem to think that men from UK/USA etc have LOTS of money and therefore it is NO big deal to just come and see them!  It's like when many of my school kids I teach will generalize and say ALL Russians/Ukraines are poor and I always need to explain that the situation is NOT quite as they believe (things are changing)!!  Maybe some more understanding from FSU women would be nice.

3) The big one - They are experts at making you look like the BAD man in order that they can use this as an excuse for their own BAD actions!   I might be wrong, but I think MOST of the time the lady has been playing around (like men always use to and of course some still do), OR the lady meets someone in the mean time and is too weak to be honest and admit she made a mistake etc.  I would much prefer it if a lady said "hey I'm sorry, but I had a moment of weakness, and met someone else, and effectively cheated on you! I didn't have the patience or self control to wait a few months for you!"  Now that lady I would RESPECT so much even though I would still be angry, but at least she was honest   Also, that honesty gives us good guys the opportunity to try to WIN her heart back and if its still a NO then c'est le vie!

Of course I don's say this is what ALL women do and NOT all FSU women, but I am beginning to feel like we are living in a day and age where if a man did what Rat's woman did then he would be labled a JERK or a TYPICAL MAN.  Ring any bells lads!  I hear these expressions ALL the time here in the UK.  But if a lady does it these days then 1) You never find out! 2) She never takes responsibility and admits to it anyway 3) She "NEVER promised anything" anyway 4) She was not exclusive with you and it was never serious anyway 5) You're a man and you'll survive because you're a man!!

I think that rather than be SO hard on Rat (and I am talking to ALL you guys and even some ladies who I think are rather harsh at times in what you have posted), maybe try to think of it from a young Western man's mindset with pure intentions to meet the lady of his dreams.  Also bear in mind that he (like many of us guys) comes from a part of the world where modern day feminism has reduced many of us guys to quivering shadows of our 'real selves' with little or no confidence because it's NEVER good enough!  Sex in The City has a lot to answer for in my humble opinion

OK, I've ended up ranting which I didn't intend to do.  I just think we should cut Rat some slack, that's all!  By the way I am not attacking anyone in this e-mail and as it happens I think BillyB gives sound advice which many of us men can learn from.  I just wanted to present another angle, that's all.

As for whether Rat should and can win this heart back well my instinct tells me NO CHANCE given the experiences (very similar) that I have encountered over the years not just from FSU women but women back here in the UK.

1 final thought to leave you guys and girls to ponder:  Earlier today while I was downstairs, I accidentally heard Paul O' Grady on his show give a mention to a particular couple who had been married for 66 years!!  Apparently they had known each other JUST 11 days before the man had to go to war (Must of been during WWII I guess).  Well she waited for him and he came back and they married and that's the way it has been ever since.  I was left wondering whether this kind of thing could and would ever happen these days?  Sadly as Rat's example illustrates, I think this kind of ROMANCE is officially DEAD!

And on that positive note I wish you all the very best and I want to hear from both men and women on some of the points I have brought up

P.S. I will now FULLY re-read everything again!  Maybe I misinterpreted a few points, but my response was based on the overall sentiment rather than anything specifically written as I think that's more important!!

P.P.S.  For what it's worth Rat, I suggest you forget this woman, save your hard earned money and come back to the Ukraine to live and work permanently.  Then you will no doubt meet another lady of your dreams, only this time you have a chance to WIN her heart forever because you are resident in her country and it will be MUCH MUCH easier As it happens and by pure coincidence, that is exactly my plan too

[Diplomacy]

Women most often cheat because they feel they are not getting respect, attention, or feel attractive.  The onus is often on the guy at that point.  Of course I am not a woman, but luckily I can get them to talk.

Some of course are just whores.  I think you find they are in the minority though.  Wedding cake seems to sure end that too.

I heard once men love to have sex, women have sex to have love.

[BillyB]

Interesting point here BillyB and one that perhaps I have misunderstood myself over the years.  I always thought that if a man (including myself) purchased any kind of gift whether it be flowers and chocolate or a weekend vacation then that would speak volumes for how SERIOUS he was about the woman. 

Yeah, giving gifts speaks volumes how serious the man is but it doesn't speak if his intentions are sincere or insincere. It also doesn't speak for the woman and her accepting your gifts is not a promise that she will marry you or even be your girlfriend. Rattlehead made the mistake when he thought the woman's acceptance to go on multiple vacations will lead to a relationship. When it didn't happen, he got upset and told her she was using him and/or a vacation whore. If Rattlehead's woman was totally insincere, she could keep him around longer for free vacations. She didn't. Vacations wouldn't have helped Rattlehead build a relationship with the woman in question. He should next time save those romantic vacations for a lady he's in a relationship with unless it's normal for him to take women on early dates to other cities and countries. I doubt he lives by those kind of rules back home.

I think Rattlehead's woman came to the conclusion she and Rattlehead wasn't compatible for whatever reason of her own. This happens all the time everyday. It's normal for people to break up more times than to be in a successful relationship.

[dazzler]

Women most often cheat because they feel they are not getting respect, attention, or feel attractive.  The onus is often on the guy at that point.  Of course I am not a woman, but luckily I can get them to talk.

Some of course are just whores.  I think you find they are in the minority though.  Wedding cake seems to sure end that too.

I heard once men love to have sex, women have sex to have love.

I heard that before too Diplomacy!  Biggest problem I find with this long-distance relationships is that when you are back in your own country until the next time you can afford to return so many things seem to be able to happen!  I understand when you say about the onus being on the man, but most men are not in the luxurious position of being able to fly out on the spur of the moment, should the lady be acting strange etc.. This is the bit I hate the most.  Having to return to UK and 'pray' the lady does not just happen to meet someone else or for that matter forget what the feelings were like in real life when things were going well!!  I think this may have been the case in Rat's case.  It seems to me that men can return to their country, work extremely hard and come back as promised in 2 or 3 months time, but many times the women are NOT strong enough to do this  Any thoughts?  For example, I have dated 3 ladies (aged 18-27) in Russia/Ukraine in the past 22 months.  Now, when I was actually able to directly influence the relationship i.e. in person, face to face and spend quality time together then positive things always happened, BUT when I returned to the UK so I could save money to return then ALWAYS negative things would happen  My fault for not being rich I guess

Anyway, my original post was looking at it from the man's perspective (something that at times seems overlooked just because they're men).  I understand all the arguments about how a man should be strong and if he offends a lady with a heat of the moment comment then he must be a man and move on etc etc.  I just don't completely buy that because a) everyone makes mistakes (including men) especially when they feel emotions for the lady in question.  b) I think there are MANY ways to be a strong man so for example being rich or being James Bond or being the muscular type isn't necessarily the ONLY way!  In this OP case, Rat has a) shown that he knows what he wants (good!) b) Made all humanly possible attempts to wow his sweetheart and I have no doubt if he was given a little more chance then he could definitely do this! and c) been man enough to share his honest feelings on an open forum as well as be humble enough to ask for advice on trying to win her back!  Rat's idea on getting a friend to ring her up and say she has won some competition is genius and should be applauded for so many reasons.  It is SAD that no one can see why Rat would or could possibly be so desperate to think of such an idea let alone implement it.  Again I would flip that 'desperate' tag on it's head (another great tag which men so often get labelled as) and instead think of how romantic the underlying sentiment behind the idea actually is!!  Why these things always get linked to crazy or psycho behaviour.  Is it the same people who are eroding our civil liberties and our freedom of speech I wonder?  I have just been watching the end of "Meet The Parents" with the modern day Romeo himself, Ben Stiller and look at all the "goofy" things he does in that movie!!  But... ultimately it is nice to see that he wins his sweetheart because deep down he really loves her and Pam and her Mum and Dad (Robert DeNiro) give him that chance that he deserves.  OK it's a comedy, but I think people (and especially women) can learn a lot from watching and studying a film like that!!  Thoughts please...  Now as for James Bond... well he is extremely stubborn and he is also the ultimate womaniser  On the contrary Rat is real (I think )  I would say to Rat that if you are super rich then jump on a plane and go visit her.  However, the likelihood is that you are like 95% of us mere mortals and therefore you should save your hard earned money and put it towards the future which you can control  believe you me, the 1 thing I have learned is that in the FSU there are SO many opportunities and like I said before: if you can just mange to stay in the country long enough you will have that chance to build and maintain a healthy relationship.  That, I am sure off!!  

[groovlstk]

I always thought that if a man (including myself) purchased any kind of gift whether it be flowers and chocolate or a weekend vacation then that would speak volumes for how SERIOUS he was about the woman.

Dazzler, you seem like a really nice guy, but if this is your philosophy you are going to be eaten alive by FSU women.

You see some men (and I happen to be 1 of them) know instinctively when they meet someone special and therefore they try to win the woman's heart.

 

1) They CAN fall deeply in love with you, but then the moment you have to go back to your country to raise the money to come back etc...  guess what.... they lose interest just as quickly.

I don't know how you define love, a girl who loses interest "just as quickly" as she falls "deeply in love" with someone DID NOT fall in love.

[Vaughn]

Holy smokes, Dazzler......in many ways I used to think like you - and it's all so rife with misguided
conclusions....

The idea about

getting a friend to ring her up and say she has won some competition

isn't
genius and deserves no applause - it's immature and very controlling behavior. The idea is cute, allright, but
would be far more appreciated by a woman already IN a relationship with the "thoughtful" man. To enact it
as a sign of interest and romantic intentions, with the intent to win her heart is really destructive.

It seems to me that men can return to their country, work extremely hard and come back as promised in 2 or 3 months time, but many times the women are NOT strong enough to do this Roll Eyes  Any thoughts?

First of all, in your example you mention three 18-27 year olds - all of whom, by virtue of their age, are
considered extremely marriageable by all men, foreign and domestic. Are we to believe that any given
"bloke" can hop on over there, shower her with wealth, go home to save for the next encounter - and
expect her to be waiting on hands and knees? The fact is, they are getting MUCH attention from others,
and yes, in the bloke's absence he is soon of casual interest, back-burner, or altogether forgotten until
the next shower. The romance isn't quite as predictable and sure as an immigration process....if it were,
visiting the FSU (or any other area) would be what it definitely is not - a trip to the candy store.

It can be tough and time-consuming finding a soulmate with whom bliss can be realized - that's what
makes the effort worth the trouble.

However, the likelihood is that you are like 95% of us mere mortals and therefore you should save your hard earned money and put it towards the future which you can control

There's the C word again. Controlling behavior is one sordid component in
the perplexing world of co-dependency. No, I'm no psychologist - and you & Rattlehead aren't psycho.
It's a stage many go through - and some never manage to emerge. Don't be one of those who clings to
the belief that life works like Meet The Parents. It's entertainment, and that's all. 

I'm also a latent romantic - and enjoyed pampering my then-fiancee with gifts, long weekends and
surprises. The difference is that I reserved the shower of goo to happen after serious interest
was mutual and established.    Geeez, doesn't anybody take simple walks through the forest anymore?

None of this is meant as criticism - I mean that - I've been in those shoes and they were never
very comfortable.

Vaughn

[dazzler]

groovlstk, I am merely looking at things from a different angle, that's all!  As for the whole falling in love thing well it's VERY simple for me to define love. 1) To become intimate with someone and 2) to say you love them!  If both parties are involved with these 2 points then YES, I would say that that indeed is falling in love on at least some level especially since point 1 happens over a period of more than 3 occasions     Regarding Rat's overall situation, it just seems these days that a man can't do right for doing right!!  I mean if he knows what he wants and he does everything in his power to achieve it then he is accused of being desperate which in turn is weak.  I am sorry, but based on the account I have read, Rat hasn't done too much wrong.  Let me put this way: You're a romantic at heart and you're traditional minded and wish to meet the woman of your dreams.  But... you just never seem to meet her in your everyday life for one reason or another   Then 1 day out of the blue, you come across this type of woman and she matches you're criteria.  How amazing is this!  But shock horror, you only have a few days left before you MUST return to your native country.  I think a true man who knew what he wanted would attempt to seize that opportunity and from the story I have read, Rat did just that!  I can't be 100% certain, but I assume Rat explained that he had to go back to USA from the first meeting? (Can you confirm this Rat).  Now, with that in mind they meet a 2nd time (on Rat's last day) and Rat presumably says something along the lines of "I really enjoy your company and I would like to spend more time with you and get to know you better".  Now at anytime the lady could of said "you know what, you are a really nice guy, BUT it is not fair on you to spend your money on me since I am not interested in foreign man / having long distance relationship etc etc.   HOWEVER..... she accepted to spend 2 days in Kiev so this implies that there was some interest on some level at least.  OK, OK.... maybe the lady spent time as a friend.  I guess that is always a possibility.... BUT.... WAIT..... I assume that after the 2 day trip in Kiev that Rat explains how he has never met anyone like her before and can't believe how well things are going and would like to spend more time in getting to know her.  To which she then accepts a 6 day trip to St Petersburg   (or was it 4 days??).  Anyway the point is that the lady should NOT in my humble opinion accept the 2 day invitation to Kiev and CERTAINLY NOT the 4-6 day trip to St Petersburg unless she is SERIOUS about getting to know Rat better  OK.. OK.. so maybe she just decided during the St. Petersburg Trip that Rat was not the man for her?  I don't know, maybe... but still it seems to me that the lady once again escapes as the completely innocent victim while Rat is oestrosised for being a man and attempting everything humanly possible in what little time he had left of his trip.  The whole romantic notion which was prevalent from the moment he met the lady has suddenly been turned into acts of "insincerity" or attempts to "buy her".  OK, well if this is so then 1) Why did the lady say yes to spending 2 days in Kiev and then 2) yes to spending 4-6 days in St Petersburg? I'm sorry, but I think the lady must at least be culpable for 50% of the blame.  After all, there are 2 people in this case.  I just think the lady could of said NO at least a few times long before it got as far as it did!  Am I also right in understanding that this lady sends an e-mail to Rat of her own volition several weeks later which implies at least SOME interest.  My hunch is that the lady has given up all too easily, but if she was perhaps brave enough to follow the same instincts she initially followed (by going on the 2 trips with Rat) then just maybe she would get a positive end result.  Have I got this completely wrong, I wonder? Of course there is always the chance that the lady had a Ukraine boyfriend all along and decided to have some fun in which case she is still MUCH more wrong than Rat is!!  If I am wrong or I am missing something here then please tell me.  As for being eaten alive by FSU women, well the only thing I would say there is at least I am getting close enough in order to be eaten alive, rather than back in my  native country where I don't even get that far   What's that saying: the critics may watch the performer while the performer will actually be tasting the dust on the floor.  Something like that anyway

P.S. there's a few women in the FSU who can eat me anyday 

[Diplomacy]

Oh Boy!

Keep your Friends close, Enemies closer, and now FSU women the closest.

The issue is first, you would probably have a problem keeping her from trading up when she got to your across the pond. 

Second, listen to Groov

Third, my guess is you are getting played by the women. You had it right if you left it at need more money.  Nothing to do with proximity and everything to do with no money, with the way you are doing it.

Fourth, you do not buy love with money, you buy a hooker.  Out of money, out a woman. See where I am going?  Rattle made her feel like that, or she knew she could get off the hook.(BTW, it does not matter)

Sound logic
believe you me, the 1 thing I have learned is that in the FSU there are SO many opportunities and like I said before

Edit
if you can just manage to stay in the country long enough before you spend all your money on one. 

You guys were given advice, mind you from women too.  You 2 can take advice or keep trying it your way.

I assure you the controlling tact and showering them with gifts you are not going to get anywhere.  Genius?  no very bad.  You trick her, could scare her, buy her more gifts, and wrong place wrong time.

He lost trust or never had it.  Once that is gone, leave relationship.   

You do not trust over distance, or even think you are capable of keeping a woman in love with you without being there.  I think we should look at   

1. Be friends first
2. Ask yourselves what is going on?
3. The only person who agrees with you has also struck out
4. learn to trust but not be naive
5. confident but not arrogant
6. get them to talk about themselves
7. Listen to the other people who really know the game
8. See #7 you seem like good guys
9. Never, ever think it is OK to be like a movie
10 Step down 3 notches on the looks of the woman

[dazzler]

First of all, in your example you mention three 18-27 year olds - all of whom, by virtue of their age, are
considered extremely marriageable by all men, foreign and domestic. Are we to believe that any given
"bloke" can hop on over there, shower her with wealth, go home to save for the next encounter - and
expect her to be waiting on hands and knees? The fact is, they are getting MUCH attention from others,
and yes, in the bloke's absence he is soon of casual interest, back-burner, or altogether forgotten until
the next shower. The romance isn't quite as predictable and sure as an immigration process....if it were,
visiting the FSU (or any other area) would be what it definitely is not - a trip to the candy store.

It can be tough and time-consuming finding a soulmate with whom bliss can be realized - that's what
makes the effort worth the trouble.

OK Vaugh point taken and point understood, but with this in mind does that mean that for the guys who target the 20-28 year old young lady, our only chance is to actually live permanently in her respective country?  In other words we would have no chance of the relationship ever developing past casual relationship status if we are apart for a few months at a time.  Your advise would be most welcome

Also, I was using the C word not in the manipulative sense, but rather in the positive sense i.e. being able to control things by being ever present in the ladies country, having the money which gives us the options to stay in the country as long as is required etc etc  Noting bad   Ultimately, I am sure most would agree that this whole adventure requires at least a modest amount of money.  Just wish I had loads so I could be in Ukraine right NOW!! 

As for these films, I think you'd be suprised at how many of them are inspired and based on both current trends and trends of the past.  That's what makes comedies so funny (because we relate to them so easily)!  For example, in Meet The Parents, Ben Stillers character is typical of the man trying to make the 'right' impression and it seems whatever he does it just makes things worse and he is made to look like a 'fool' which obviously creates GOOD family, fun comedy fodder.  However, I am sure that this character would of been based on someone real who probably felt that this film would be a great way to show how things could turn out if they were given the chance they probably NEVER got in real life!  That's why I used this particular film as an example to relate it to Rat's scenario!!  the moral being that just maybe if you take a leaf out of that film.. then the rewards would be reaped.  On the other hand maybe I'm just reading too much into modern day comedy

Yes... perhaps in retrospect you are right BillyB and Vaughn: Rat should not have spent so much money so quickly on a lady he had just met Good point!  Having said that though, what was he supposed to do if he felt such strong feelings for her and had such little time left to get to know her?  Should he of just forgotten it from the beginning?  Is that not the weak thing to do?  That was my only point.

Walks in the forest is a good idea YES!